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quote:
Originally posted by Les Apt:

Sir:

Do you wish to have a civil discussion, or are you going to attempt to intimidate me with your "angry black man" shoutdown routine?

Adults debate the subject matter; juveniles attack the debater.
AGAIN, for the Hard-Of-Learning...
quote:
Further, let's assume the "reality" of America is some evil conspiracy, as you portray.
Yeah! I got it! I see exactly how that is both "civil" and not an expression of your "ANGRY WHITE MALE" - aka CONFUSED WHITE MALE SYNDROME.

Kevin posed a pretty straight-forward proposition. You are a SUB... The overwhelming majority of Major Contractors are WHite... Why is it that you are here raising issues and not attempting to engage the MAJOR WHITE CONTRACTORS who select SUBs in a "civil" and "adult debate?

Your whole purpose and being... here is misplaced.

AGAIN, come with the stats and concrete evidence that it is you who, first, would have specifically been chosen to do work had it not been for those self-described few minority SUbs who "took" work from you.

How can someone take something that never was yours in the first place? I have not heard you say that contracts that you already possessed or were assigned were taken from you.

MBM, KWELI have asked you in a very "civil" manner... But I doubt you are adult enough to answer any of that with anything but your inferences - i.e. no hardcore facts...

And if you could, again, your purpose here is drastically misplaced. You issue is with the Major Contractors who happen to be White...

You should stick with your qualified answer:
I don't have an answer.
That about sums it up!
quote:
I suggest you take a statistics course, instead of blaming the results of the statistics on some white conspiracy.


You keep making this White COnspiracy claim or rather attributing that idea to others... I have yet to see it have a basis in anything I or anyone else has said...

You can perhaps help in forwarding a "civil" debate by not making assumptions about what someone else is saying or coming here with preconceived notions about what someone thinks.

Quote, paraphrase, demonstrate where Kevin or I have made such a grand "conspiracy" claim/charge here. Either that or admit that that's your CONFUSED WHITE MALE BAGGAGE THAT YOU HAVE BROUGHT INTO THIS DISCUSSION! And just because you have been questioned/contradicted you want to scream some extreme view that others have to strengthen you WEAK argument/angle.

Again, to the extent that "Reverse Discrimination" is real... WHO'S FAULT IS IT?
WHat really constitutes "reverse discrimination"?

Hint: You may have alluded to it... somewhat... but the REVERSE of something means it must be an exact opposite of the original.

Reverse Discrimination in the AMerican context, for example, would therefore mean that Blacks CONTROL ALL or most of everything in society... BLACKS enslaving WHITES, BLACK dominated segregation where Blacks are on the more "equal" side of Separate but [un]equal... Where Blacks Dominate Government, Politics, Industry, Economics etc. over Whites...

YOU HAVE NO POINT because there is no or very few instances of an exact "reverse" of the discriminatory practices that are historically White-over-Black... Now you have, if anything, a convoluted system of White-over-Black discrimination and for the most part White-over-White "discrimination" to make up for or rather to try to off-set the overwhelming presence and history of White-over-Black discrimination.

You have no one to BLAME but WHITEY himself! Big Grin

If not for an extreme sense of self-interest whereby "Whitey" saw fit to try to racially monopolize every aspect of society and industry we would not be here. Where it not for those specific acts and the additional acts to undermine "minority" acquisition of some significant measure there would be no problem of having "minority" sub-contractors...

I'm sure you understand how BIG-Business constantly squeezes and even tries to eliminate small business competition... historically/currently... Well, my friend, don't suspend your sense just because this subject deals with race. The BIG-Squeeze and quest for (White racial monopoly/control) is why we are where we are today.

That doesn't take a conspiracy (to explain it)... it takes HISTORY and REALITY to know that that's the nature of doing business and doing business with those that are "established"....

There we have it... "ESTABLISHED" businesses, etc. is contingent on a history of which access to capital - which historically has been problematic along racial lines - is a major determinant.

HISTORY... not a conspiracy!
It the way things were, are and will be with the mode of thinking that's out there.

Funny how Kweli and MBM echoed what I said...
quote:
How would you propose that his "country" apologize for the abomination of slavery?

And to whom? To you? How recently were YOU enslaved, Kevie?
LAME!!

You and I and everyone else know that was not the point. IF you want to talk about eliminating the problems of race and racism, KEVIN simply pointed you in the direction of a definite starting point (or the point where this all broke down and has never been reconciled)...

An apology is not necessary... but the acknowledgement of exactly what was wrong and correcting ALL the wrong that went with it is what is at issue.

YOU ARE MOTIVATED, as you have professed, by your SELF-interest.... PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!! Don't try to act like you are concerned about "principles" here. You already outed yourself!

"I've lost contracts".... (or whatever you said)

That's exactly your point for being here... YOUR SELF-INTEREST. Nothing more, nothing less (if you would be completely honest)

NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Les Apt, You seem to prove my larger point with your, "I'm a White guy. Yet, I haven't been in business for 30 yrs, like some of the other businesses in my field. SWo I haven't }
seen the benefits of 30 yrs of networking, like older business owners have. It's more of a 'the rich get richer' circle ..."

My point was/is, the blind eye White businesses turn to losing a majority of opportunities to White businesses for non-competitive reasons; while zeroing in on AA/Set-aside programs, that constitute a relatively small percentage of the opportunities, as the evil that is to be stamped out.[/QUOTE]

I said nothing of the sort. I said that newly-established subcontractor businesses don't have the advantage of years-long track record of relationships with larger general contrator concerns. I'm just a guy who started a business 5 years ago. I'd like to do subcontracting work for larger GCs. But those GCs don't know me from Adam. Why would they take a chance of buying from me, when they've been happy with their current suppliers of 20+ years? Do I cry "racism" because I'm a Polak and they're giving the business to their Italian buddy instead? Do I cry to my local black politicians to go to bat for me, and shake down these contractors for set-asides? No. I just get back on the phone and try to make appointments to go see other GCs. Besides, there doesn't exist a "White Business Enterprise Commission" to bring to bear pressure on politicians to pressure the Italian GC to hire more Polaks.

Your excuse is as bad as a nurse who thinks she needs a union to make big money, like a doctor does. Instead of saying "Gee, maybe I ought to go to medical school to be a doctor", she whines "I need a union."

And, yes, you're correct; set-asides ARE evils that need to be eliminated. Just more government-sponsored racial discrimination.



It would seem that your ire would be better directed at those preventing you from the food on the table, rather than those that collect crumbs that have fallen to the floor.[/QUOTE]
quote:


What's with this "ire" moniker, anyway? I've shown no ire toward anything. I'm simply, as you are, pointing out the irony in discrimination. Yet, you think the type that benefits you is OK....

[QUOTE]
You ask, why a racial thing as opposed to relationships that stretch back for years? I don't know the field you are in, but I'm sure you realize and/or recognize that 30 years ago, Blacks were routinely excluded from construction trade apprenticeship programs and the bidding process. So what else could it possibly be if one is barred from establishing those key relationships because of one's race.



Thirty years ago is 1973. Please show proof of your assertion.

quote:

If you were to read the legislative histories regarding the creation of such programs and/or the court decisions upholding AA/Set-aside programs, especially in the construction trades, you will see they were created to rectify this exclusion.


I'm not familiar with construction trades, but I am familiar with the recent high court's liberal explanation of "compelling interest." Please explain to me why it's in the State's interest to have a more diverse college classroom, populated with students who, without racial quota-filling, wouldn't be there otherwise. When you get through with that, please explain why the same scenario is in the other students' interest who got there without such State-sponsored racial quota-filling.

quote:

Again, your "Street" comment regarding the running of the city goes to my initial point. Why is it a grievious sin to proclaim, what you have accepted as "just the way it is", politicians handing out political favors to their cronies. Could it possibly be that in this case it is a Black politician benefiting his Black (a other) cronies, just as generations of White politicians benefited White businesses?



Sir: Stop asking loaded questions, will you? Nowhere have I said that it's an eggregious sin. Quit putting words into my argument that didn't exist previous to my posting them. Nice tactic, but it's not working.

I simply stated that it takes place with politicians and campaign contributors, be they black, white, Jewish or otherwise.

You, somehow see the need to sidestep this acknowledgement, like it's a "whites only" occurance, and that blacks are totally innocent of such practices. My point is that politicians are self-serving scumbags, regardless of what color skin God gave them.

Next?
quote:
And, yes, you're correct; set-asides ARE evils that need to be eliminated. Just more government-sponsored racial discrimination.
AND WHO??? WHO??? Besides WHITE MEN are the controlling figures of this "government-sponsored racial discrimination" as you call it.

YOU ISSUE IS WITH WHITE MALE ELITES!!!

Go to their forums and engage them in "civil debate"...

NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(What's the matter? Afraid to pick on someone that's your own kind? Or someone bigger than you?)

WHINE at the next station!!!!!!!
We're fresh out of tissues! winkgrin
I'm here, NMag. Get used to it.

So, you're saying that State-sponsored racial discrimination is OK, even it if IS condoned by White politicians?

I see. So, racial descrimination is OK when it favors blacks.

Nice hypocrisy.

Again, thanks for answering my questions to Kev; I'm sure he appreciates your attempt to run roughshod over his discussion.

So, seeing as how you've decided to butt in, please enlighten me on how the issue of slavery (130+ years ago), and all the wrongs associated with it need to be "reconciled"........

Your ball.
quote:
My point is that politicians are self-serving scumbags, regardless of what color skin God gave them.

Okay... Then where is your fervor to eliminate the EVIL of cronyism in White-FACE?

You are motivated by your WHITE SELF-INTEREST. Admit it and move on... Otherwise, let's see you oppose as Kweli has offered, legacies and all manner of centuries old WHITE CRONYISM!

(Your disproportionate silence is all too revealing....)

NEEEXXXXXXXTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT !!!!!!!!!!!
naw Les,

Do not try to deflect the crux of the matter by labeling me as racist.....as so far as "reverse racism", angry white guys coined that term....not black people. I speak to you because you come across with the white nievete that AA was created unjustifiably so or there were no set of historical circumstances that justified its creation in the first place. I guess whites woke up in the 80's & 90's and said thats enough with that equality bullshit....so no, I am not a racist at all.....too intelligent and educated to be one because that bullshit contradicts TRUE intelligence. I just deal with racists or anyone else in a likewise manner....as so far as the apology for slavery, that is up to your people to figure out...they figured out how to implement slavery in the first place.....but they know that opens a legal case for reparations....who are we fooling here? I am sure you are wise enough to know that also....and as so far as me being enslaved.....if i were to rape your grandmother, should it be a non-issue to you because YOU were not raped? i didn't think so.........so save the common dialogue whites save for the dumbed-down, intellectually inferior negro (their perception of things) because it will not fly here......I spent my younger years reminding whites of history and reading the current racist social landscape to them....that was then. Now I realize that dialogue about racial issues with 95% of whites is fruitless....because they never acknowledge reality in its fullest....just the part that fits their stance on the issues.....and thats kool too....but I do not have time for that old master/slave relationship nonsense.....there are others who are dying to play that role instead...some post in here.......
Why would "my people" need to figure out an apology for slavery? They aren't the ones demanding one.

Nice try with the "grandmother" analogy, but I think most grandmothers aren't 130+ years old.

Why am I the enemy here? I was born in 1963. What, precisely, am I guilty of?

What would you like my generation do to make you happy?

Do you know anybody who drives a Japanese car?

You'd better tell 'em all how wrong they are, due to the atrocities that the Japanese committed against American citizens 60 years ago.......
Les...

You fashioned yourself as the "enemy" because you come here to talk about your SELF-interest and in a futile attempt try to mask it as if you are concerned with what is "right"...

YOU ARE NOT. You are a fraud in that respect.
You are the "enemy" because that's what resides in your mind. Your self-interest is what put you at odds... what makes you the "enemy"...

YOU ARE NOT concerned with "what is right". You are concerned with what is right for you... And that's it.

Just respond and answer MBM's "civil" questions... You're wasting all of our time with the rest of the stock BS... and as Kevin said, your COGNITIVE DISSONANCE!

Nobody needs to explain to you how "you" are implicated by "The Sins Of [Your] Fathers"...
IF you can gladly participate in the BENEFITS of yesterday then you are also obligated to deal with the DEBT accumulated in the past as well.

Sorry... put I don't suspend common sense for my SELF-INTEREST. Me and My people have done nothing to be a "minority" in this country... So what's your point?

Segregation and the gradual changes the saw to its demise are, as it has been said, only a mere 30 plus years old. My parents are OLDER than 30. My parents and their relative fortune and life chances DIRECTLY IMPACT ME!

We are talking about a LIVING and yet still ALIVE history.

You have to deal with White Elites who have always been just that, engaged in Elitism.

Take your petty issues up with them!
NEXT!!!!!!!!
Like I said Les,

Racial dialogue is fruitless....if you and the rest of whites in amerikkka do not understand that the financial gains whites SOLEY gained from slavery all disappeared and all of the farms, businesses and money were burned after the civil war so we couls all start even steven, then I am really wasting my time (which I figured out long ago) talking to you or anyone else. There was many a black born poor as hell when whites were born into wealth garnered off of the backs of blacks....once again, you know this and I do too. BTW, I have a healthy as hell 97 yr old grandmother who remembers jim crow fondly...and although that wasn't slavery per se.....it was just as detremental socially and economically. And just listening to my grandmother....I clearly see the social and economic vestiges of jim crow and slavery that are clearly apparent today......and as a white guy, you do not understand those principles....you need to read or ask any old relatives of yours about the white privelege that made even your birth disparate from that of many blacks your very same age.....I am around your age and I remember the CRM with the police dogs and beatings on TV...and integration of schools...our schools were top-notch in out part of Texas...so white kids were bused over to us and we went nowhere.......now do you actually think all that had no effect on the lives of blacks born in the 60's? Can you honestly say yes that all inequities from slavery were erased by then? I think not.................
I posted:

if you and the rest of whites in amerikkka do not understand that the financial gains whites SOLEY gained from slavery all disappeared and all of the farms, businesses and money were burned after the civil war so we couls all start even steven, then I am really wasting my time (which I figured out long ago) talking to you or anyone else.

**What I meant to say was:
if you and the rest of whites in amerikkka BELIEVE that the financial gains whites SOLEY gained from slavery all disappeared and all of the farms, businesses and money were burned after the civil war so we could all start even steven, then I am really wasting my time (which I figured out long ago) talking to you or anyone else that believes that nonsense.
quote:
Originally posted by Les Apt:

Do you know anybody who drives a Japanese car?

You'd better tell 'em all how wrong they are, due to the atrocities that the Japanese committed against American citizens 60 years ago.......


I haven't been following this thread, but I assume from the wording that you are not referring to the Internment Camps for Japanese Americans.

Plowshares Actions
The Nuclear Resister
School of the Americas Watch
miserable failure



Cauca, Colombia

quote:
if you and the rest of whites in amerikkka BELIEVE that the financial gains whites SOLEY gained from slavery all disappeared and all of the farms, businesses and money were burned after the civil war so we could all start even steven, then I am really wasting my time (which I figured out long ago) talking to you or anyone else that believes that nonsense.
That is, in fact, the pretense by extension of their philosophy...

LES!!! No one cares when you were born!
Especially if you want to be oblivious to the obvious...

1963! What was the social realities then?
Why are there houses, businesses, communities etc. that have been INHERITED from 1960's, etc. that are still present today?

Yeah! Since nobody today is responsible for or benefitted from what occurred in the "troubling past" could you point us all to the that EVEN STEVEN starting point? When did that happen? 1963? 1964?

I'm assuming there was redistribution of wealth and resources or the suspension of ownership of any wealth from the "past".... You know... TO Make Things EVEN or the "playing field level"...

Could you tell us when that happened?

COuld you tell us when all the land that belonged to the Native Americans was returned?
You know those were ill-gotten gains... When was that rectified?

In other words... you can quit with your selective emphasis - your SELF-Interested emphasis - on "what is fair" and whose responsible for what!

Since the M.O. of people who hold opinions like you (and you can feel free to clarify) is to, in terms of the historical inequities, to Let By-Gones Be By-Gones then why don't you let the By Gones of AA, etc. be By-Gone since those "benefits" have already been dispensed (however recent... if they have been obtained... they're in the "past") and just focus of "preventing" it from happening again.

You know... we can't change the past! Big Grin
(Next!! Responding to willful stupidity is so boring...)
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
oh yeah....the A-Bomb japanese dropped on america? yeah...i remember that one......


Kevin:

If you're really that much of an blind liberal, I'd suggest that further discussions might be of little use.

Perhaps you're instead referring to the TWO bombs that we dropped on Japan. Two bombs that ensured that you're not here whining in Japanese.
quote:
Originally posted by Les Apt:
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
oh yeah....the A-Bomb japanese dropped on america? yeah...i remember that one......


Kevin:

If you're really that much of an blind liberal, I'd suggest that further discussions might be of little use.

Perhaps you're instead referring to the TWO bombs that we dropped on Japan. Two bombs that ensured that you're not here whining in Japanese.


If you really believe that we'd be speaking Japanese absent Hiroshima and Nagasaki, further discussions might indeed be of little use. Roll Eyes

Plowshares Actions
The Nuclear Resister
School of the Americas Watch
miserable failure



Cauca, Colombia

quote:
Originally posted by Les Apt:
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
oh yeah....the A-Bomb japanese dropped on america? yeah...i remember that one......


Kevin:

If you're really that much of an blind liberal, I'd suggest that further discussions might be of little use.

Perhaps you're instead referring to the TWO bombs that we dropped on Japan. Two bombs that ensured that you're not here whining in Japanese.
rotflmao

Please!!!!!!!!!

You brought the subject up!
Why are descendants of AFRICANS "WHINING" English? You act as if we are "you"...

Don't project your paranoia and bullshit Patriotism on us! You act as if we should want to preserve White Dominance for the sake of the feable threat of dominance from others.

SOrry... We are not your avg. Yessum Massa "I'll fight your battles to stay your slave (or underling) right along with you" type Black people.

Don't presume with all your Whiteness that your enemies are our enemies (at least not with the same degree of contempt)!

So, in other words, try that bullshit emotional plea with your White friends somebody to which that has some consequence... If we were to be "speaking Japanese" now... we would deal with it the same way we have dealt with speaking your WHITE language.

As they say "in the hood"... AIN'T NOTHING BUT A STEP for a STEPPER!
(It's your paranoid as that would be so distraught if you were speaking Japanese. Don't project your anxiety... Les(s)...)

What? You want to tell us that it is some unmitigated blessing that we speak English?

Thanks for showing your Whiteness.
It has been duly noted!
quote:
If you really believe that we'd be speaking Japanese absent Hiroshima and Nagasaki, further discussions might indeed be of little use.
Ricardo...

Thanks! that's what I wanted to say...

Funny how the ridiculous think their irrational, paranoid, over-f@ckin'-exaggerated, anxiety is supposed to be shared in common.

But I guess S0-Damn Insane was going to have us all speaking Arabic if he had his way! His vaunted Republican guard were mere days away from beating us into submission!

Yes, little Iraq or little Japan at the time were the great and Imposing David that would slay the American Goliath!....
!!!!WAIT!!! I got it all wrong! The U.S. has been the poor little David in a world full of Big Goliaths constantly seeking to bully our poor little selves!

It sucks big a small power! Roll Eyes
NMag:

A little history lesson here.

Pearl Harbor.

"Little Japan?"

And you talk about revisionist history......

Want to talk a little more about current affairs and Iraq?

Let's talk about WWIII and who it currently involves.

Muslims versus Christians and Jews.

WWWIII is not about Saddam Hussein or the Republican Guard. It's about terrorists and countries that harbor terrorists. By our cozy relationship with Israel, the US has put itself into the crosshairs of Muslim extremists who feel it's their turn to rule the world. Unfortunately, every time this happens, it's usually because of Israel feels threatened by one of it's neighboring countries. And who goes in to make sure Israel is at ease? You guessed it.

[This message was edited by Les Apt on January 01, 2004 at 02:26 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
A few honest questions:

1) How much business have you lost to companies for competitive reasons, from competitors who just offered a better product/service/price package?

2) How much business have you lost to companies willing to generally "bust their asses" more than you?

3) If there is such a financial incentive (set asides) for minority firms where you are, why is there still such a shortage of companies looking to do that work? Where there is opportunity, there is typically a line of people/companies looking to cash in on it. To what do you attribute the fact that this appears not to be the case where you are?

quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
quote:
Originally posted by Les Apt:
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
oh yeah....the A-Bomb japanese dropped on america? yeah...i remember that one......


Kevin:

If you're really that much of an blind liberal, I'd suggest that further discussions might be of little use.

Perhaps you're instead referring to the TWO bombs that we dropped on Japan. Two bombs that ensured that you're not here whining in Japanese.


If you really believe that we'd be speaking Japanese absent Hiroshima and Nagasaki, further discussions might indeed be of little use. Roll Eyes

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miserable failure



_Cauca, Colombia_






That's right, Rickie.

And the English, Europeans, North Africans and Russians would be speaking perfect German if we hadn't taken care of a little problem over there, too.

Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
A few honest questions:

1) How much business have you lost to companies for competitive reasons, from competitors who just offered a better product/service/price package?

2) How much business have you lost to companies willing to generally "bust their asses" more than you?

3) If there is such a financial incentive (set asides) for minority firms where you are, why is there still such a shortage of companies looking to do that work? Where there is opportunity, there is typically a line of people/companies looking to cash in on it. To what do you attribute the fact that this appears not to be the case where you are?




Michael:

1. I have never lost business due to either quality or service. I have, however, lost business on a number of occasions due to price. This is understandable, though, as the Mercedes dealer loses business to the Chevy dealer, also. My product line is typically high end, so this loss in business is an expected component of choosing to rep items of this nature.

2. How does one quantify this? Since I typically work 90 hours per week, I'd say the likelihood of losing business in this fashion might be pretty small.

3. Michael: I didn't assert that there is a shortage of companies looking to cash in on this opportunity. I have no idea how many registered MBEs there are out there. I said that there is a historical underreprentation of blacks in construction trades, at least as far as I've been able to ascertain.

3B. Again, I have no idea who, or how many people have sought these opportunities. But, again, I'd suggest that it has more to do with the simple fact that blacks are underrepresented in the building trades.

A relative is a union steamfitter. His company was approached by some special interest group and was asked how many jobs on the Philadelphia Phillies Stadium his company would guarantee to blacks. The owner said "none." Why? Because he didn't employ any.
Lose business:

Company A had a lower price than I did.

I lost business to company A.

That's lost business, genius.

Definition of losing business to a set-aside:

2003.....

Philadelphia Phillies Stadium.

Ornamental cast iron tree grates are specified in the site package.

My company reps the brand that was specified.

GC on the stadium job, Driscoll Hunt, says "Sorry, but the rules stipulate that I have to buy from a Minority owned Business Enterprise."

Me: "Oh, I see.....what price did the Minority owned Business Enterprise quote you?"

Driscoll Hunt: "30% more than you did, but I have to use him..."

Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
How would you propose that his "country" apologize for the abomination of slavery?

And to whom? To you? How recently were YOU enslaved, Kevie?
LAME!!

You and I and everyone else know that was not the point. IF you want to talk about eliminating the problems of race and racism, KEVIN simply pointed you in the direction of a definite starting point (or the point where this all broke down and has never been reconciled)...

An apology is not necessary... but the acknowledgement of exactly what was wrong and correcting ALL the wrong that went with it is what is at issue.




And how do you propose that this be done?

What "wrongs" would you like to see corrected?

Confused
quote:
And how do you propose that this be done?

What "wrongs" would you like to see corrected?

IF you have to ask then certainly it is not worth even communicating it to you. Obviously by quoting "WRONGS" as you did you have some reservations or question whether there are or were "wrongs"...

Sorry...

I don't waste time talking to brick walls. You already have your mind made up about what you believe to be the reality and the relevant result of U.S. history. So discussing what "I" would like to see changed or what I would "propose" to you is an exercise in futility.

I don't care one bit about what you think about what I think - i.e. I don't need, want or care to solicit your approval, opinion or audience for those things.

Shrink your ego pal! Don't think that I'm enamoured with your perverted sense of self-importance. If you question that... you should ask yourself why you thought it was so important for you to come here. What were you looking for? What was you intention? What? To come here to educate us? To strike up a dialogue... only to flip back to educate mode when your words were not accepted lock, stock and barrel?

You, in all your Whiteness, don't mean a damn to me! So stop the pretense that you are here for some type of dialogue or objective "adult" discussion of the issues involved. You are here to promote your self-interest. One in which I have no interest in. They are "your" SELF interest, meaning that sh*t only resonates with you, pal!

For sure, you are of no consequence. Lose the ego and pretentious BS then we can talk. I applaud your denouncement of Stormfront, etc. but coming here to promote your White self-interest and henceforth tainted perspective is, despite of how diplomatic you think it sounds, no better than the Stormfronters. At least they have no delusions about what, in effect, their position is, which is more than I can say for you.

So... since I might have to say it, you so-called non-racist Whites who don't hold the "racist" views of Stormfronters yet still promote your self-interest ignoring the obvious things that have been presented here to you (see Kweli's statements) are indeed WORST than the "blatant" racists. Why? Because of your delusions, your deception, and your pretense...

Les(s) any man should doubt.... Big Grin
quote:
posted January 01, 2004 04:14 PM
Lose business:

Company A had a lower price than I did.

I lost business to company A.

That's lost business, genius.

Definition of losing business to a set-aside:

2003.....

Philadelphia Phillies Stadium.

Ornamental cast iron tree grates are specified in the site package.

My company reps the brand that was specified.

GC on the stadium job, Driscoll Hunt, says "Sorry, but the rules stipulate that I have to buy from a Minority owned Business Enterprise."

Me: "Oh, I see.....what price did the Minority owned Business Enterprise quote you?"

Driscoll Hunt: "30% more than you did, but I have to use him..."
Did you ever have a SIGNED CONTRACT? >>>>> NO! <<<<<

That makes it business that you were unable to acquire. That means you never "had" the business! YOU CAN'T LOSE WHAT YOU NEVER HAD!
Or I guess you admit to feeling ENTITLED to it!... I mean you're good for it! You're White and no matter what... no matter what you should always get the nod over someone Black, huh?

Where are your published stats about the Minority "30%" extra? (PS, shit somebody told you don't count... People can say anything. It doesn't mean it's true or even false... but their motivation for saying certain things are definitely in play and should be questioned.)

I'm sure Mr. Hunt would fully disclose every White contractor that he chose to use instead of yours who just so happen to charge more (and perhaps has better quality work or an established relationship...).... giving all the reasons why he "had" to do so...

Gullible sap!

Have you surveyed every possible contract/bid to ensure that it's always the "low-bid" that's taken? Or have you selectively focused on only Minority cases?

Reality and objectivity - i.e. not speaking purely out of your self-interest - would tell you that the gov't "overpays" for more than Minority contract/bids...
How much does a hammer cost the federal gov't?
Do you have records... RECORDS... official documents... SHIT IN WRITING! that says those exorbent amounts are "ALL" going to Minority contractors?

HELL NO! You don't!
Your White a$$ can just excuse that shit when it's another White person beating you out regardless of the PRICE... and OH! let us not forget the quality. (Kinda just like the Gratz girl at U-Michigan...)


Quit trying to pretend that one case is indicative of all Minority cases. Take your selective BS on to a White site where somebody cares! Otherwise, have a nice night and a prosperous New Year! Big Grin

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on January 01, 2004 at 06:09 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by AngryBlackMan:
Your White a$$ can just excuse that shit


Dear Angry Black Man:

Your running mouth is why your ilk isn't, and will never be, taken seriously.

Your juvenile, expletive-laced mouth overruns the message of your cause.

Richard Pryor, you definitely are not. Richard Pryor did "you" better than you do "you", 20 years ago.

Roll Eyes

Please answer my question posed several times previously.

Other than pointing out problems of past racial injustices, how about pointing out solutions?

You don't really have any, do you? None that you know will be seriously considered, that is.

I'm waiting.

And without the "Angry Black Man" shoutdown tactics. They, obviously, don't work.

[This message was edited by Les Apt on January 01, 2004 at 08:54 PM.]
quote:
Other than pointing out problems of past racial injustices, how about pointing out solutions?

You don't really have any, do you? None that you know will be seriously considered, that is.

I'm waiting.
Let me say this nicely...

I DON'T GIVE DAMN, FLYIN' MARY POPPINS, OVER_THE_RAINBOW... F@CK! About YOU "Waiting"!

Who the HELL do you think you are?

SERIOUSLY CONSIDERED???
Seriously considered by whom?
YOU and your "ilk"?

F@CK YOU!
(I apologizes to everyone else for my tone... AnYwAy!!....)

Don't a GOT DAMN thing I think have to be run by YOU for your *Approval, *Acceptance, *OPinion, *Consideration, *Acknowledgement, or *Audience....

Sorry if that reduces your SELF-IMPORTANCE...
quote:
You don't really have any, do you?
I recall that that was basically how "YOU" ended one of your first post on this topic. DON'T PROJECT YOUR INADEQUACIES on me!

You are in a BLACK FORUM!
You determine NOTHING HERE!
No one is subject to your demands!

Again, as for you "waiting", F@CK YOU!
You'll be WAITING 'til HELL freezes over before bow to your bullsh*t!

Next time try coming here with the PRETENSE PAL!
Let's highlight you most recent one:
"Your juvenile, expletive-laced mouth overruns the message of your cause."

First of all, you assume that I should or must "respect" you... Sorry, but you have to earn respect from me, pal! You blew it with that irreverent, "Big Conspiracy" bullshit!... Not to mention your promotion of your self-interest!

Secondly, the presumption you have that YOU as a White person (or White society at large) has to "take" what I or we say "seriously" is, again, the assertion of your SELF-IMPORTANCE. You, for one, definitely don't have any VETO powers here. And you and your bullshit, warped ideas about WHO is being discriminated against, etc. DON'T F@CKIN' MATTER!

I don't speak to have you "consider my cause"...
YOU DON'T F@CKIN MATTER! Why should I be concerned about you then?

What's juvenile is the bullshit idea that we are suppose to be beholden to you... and your "ilk"... Because we won't to make sure we don't piss off the White people so that they can take our cause seriously!

NOTE: I talk to you exactly the way I do because I DON'T TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY!

Your bullshit tone does not and cannot cloak your intentions and motivations.


BTW, I don't recall promoting a "cause" here. I do recall "you" doing just that. GUESS WHAT?? You have not helped "your cause" here! You have not been taken "seriously". You are a JOKE! Big Grin and you even used "nice" (adult) and platable language... GO FIGURE!

(STUPID, DUMB, non-correlating BS!)

broscream NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
quote:
Do I write like an angry white man?
Whining about "losing" jobs/contracts/bids that you NEVER HAD is playing the Angry White Man role when it is so easy to point out the inconsistencies of those who incur your "wrath" or since you like nice, calm words... those who you focus on as unworthy recipents of "favors"...

You are not consistent...
What motivated you to come here?
You general bliss with the way things are for you and your business?

Please! Spare us the semantics.
We could care less how you choose to see yourself.

What?? Do you want our conversations with you to revolve around PC language?
Note: I already mention why I have NO RESPECT for you. So don't even try that angle. YOU gets NONE! (Definitely not automatically or based on your "tone".)

You, Les Apt, are NO better than the StormFronters. You are WORST! Tone of voice, argument have nothing to do with it. That is if you really are an adult and can separate style from substance. What's juvenile is the inability to deal with things because "they don't sound good" or whatever the hell you petty little comments are about.

What? You don't feel that you respected by my words... Damn! Sherlocke! Hot on the case, huh? YOU gets NO RESPECT here! And no one is beholden to get you to consider "our cause"...
You brought your busted White a$$ here!

YOU DON'T RUN SH*T here!
Got that?
Les Apt, it seems that you are deliberately missing the point of my posts ...

Question 1: What was/is the original intent of AA/Set aside programs? (Hint: research the legislative histories and rationales of the Supreme Court decisions upholding them.)

By your words, you seem to accept being locked out of Sub jobs due to the GC not knowing you or your work. There are few Black Subs and/or GC's with 30 yrs of industry working relationships. Why is that? (Hint: See answer to Question 1, above.)

Question 2: Have you ever lost a job where the contract winner bid more than you and was a White business? If you answered yes, how is that less repugnant than losing a job as a result of a remedial program designed to address historical discrimination? (The point of my posts)

Note: based on your postings, where you rile against AA/Set-aside programs as patently unfair, but don't speak to being locked out because of bid-rigging, patronage, or other non-competitive reasons. So, I am left to assume that your silence is assent, or at least acceptance.

And, I would hazard to guess that this assent is based in your hope to one day benefit from these non-competitive awards. Which is fine.

But, your anger is that AA/Set-aside programs will/have upset the status quo established, by law, during Jim Crow, and to present, by custom, where White businesses only have/had to compete against other White businesses, because Black businesses were/are locked out solely based on race.

{Again, please don't raise the "Two wrongs" argument.}
Dear Angry Black Man:

You're the one crying for the correction of past injustices.

Yet, you fail to come up with any solutions.

See? Your "Angry Black Man" shoutdown tactics still aren't working.

Have you asked MLM to tutor you on how to speak and spell correctly?

I've taken the time to read several of his posts and the man knows how to present his viewpoints in a civil and comprehensive manner.
Unlike you, he also knows how to write.
While I don't agree with all he has proposed, the manner in which it's presented at least leads one's mind to open. Your methods, on the other hand, cause the mind to snap shut and proclaim "Ha! Angry Black Man.."

It's fun to note all of the emails I've received from other board members and their collective views of you.

Are you SURE you're not really Louis Farrakook?
You know, the black David Duke?

David Duke: Blacks and Jews are bad.
Louis Farrakook: Whites and Jews are bad.

Roll Eyes

Micheal, on the other hand, by knowing how to speak, seems to accomplish far more, like the man who's actions resultied in the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

You sound like the type who created the LA riots.

Tell you what, dolt:

Since you put forth the premise for the need for "white america" to understand and to address past wrongdoings, I'll leave it up to you to put your keyboard where your mouth is. If you need a reminder of where Kevvie, with your unwanted assistance said so, I'll be glad to show you, since you seem to forget.

Roll Eyes
quote:
Question 2: Have you ever lost a job where the contract winner bid more than you and was a White business? If you answered yes, how is that less repugnant than losing a job as a result of a remedial program designed to address historical discrimination? (The point of my posts)

Note: based on your postings, where you rile against AA/Set-aside programs as patently unfair, but don't speak to being locked out because of bid-rigging, patronage, or other non-competitive reasons.

  • So, [WE are] left to assume [with certainty] that your silence is assent, or at least acceptance.

  • quote:
    Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
    Les Apt, it seems that you are deliberately missing the point of my posts ...

    Question 1: What was/is the original intent of AA/Set aside programs? (Hint: research the legislative histories and rationales of the Supreme Court decisions upholding them.)

    By your words, you seem to accept being locked out of Sub jobs due to the GC not knowing you or your work. There are few Black Subs and/or GC's with 30 yrs of industry working relationships. Why is that? (Hint: See answer to Question 1, above.)

    Question 2: Have you ever lost a job where the contract winner bid more than you and was a White business? If you answered yes, how is that less repugnant than losing a job as a result of a remedial program designed to address historical discrimination? (The point of my posts)

    Note: based on your postings, where you rile against AA/Set-aside programs as patently unfair, but don't speak to being locked out because of bid-rigging, patronage, or other non-competitive reasons. So, I am left to assume that your silence is assent, or at least acceptance.

    And, I would hazard to guess that this assent is based in your hope to one day benefit from these non-competitive awards. Which is fine.

    But, your anger is that AA/Set-aside programs will/have upset the status quo established, by law, during Jim Crow, and to present, by custom, where White businesses only have/had to compete against other White businesses, because Black businesses were/are locked out solely based on race.

    {Again, please don't raise the "Two wrongs" argument.}


    1. They were an attempt to right past racial inequities. These attempts were accomplished through government-sponsored policies of racial discrimination. You seem to think this form of discrimination is OK, since it's not committed against blacks. I fail to understand your thought process.

    I accept being excluded simply because GC's who bid on a job aren't aware of my existence as a sub. supplier. However, it's up to me to make sure they know about me the next time. It's not an easy task to have people buy from me after having dealt with other suppliers for years. "That's the way we've always done it" is a tough circle of stubbornness to overcome.

    Why are there few blacks with 30 years of contractor relationships? I thought I've answered this already. Haven't you been listening? My guess is that, since blacks have not historically chosen to pursue vocational trades, their underrepresentation in this data sampling would provide a self explanation.

    2. I don't think you fully understand the meaning of "Sealed Public Bid" or you would not be putting forth this impossible scenario assumption. If contractors bid on a public project, the QUALIFIED low bidder wins. Period. End of story.

    And, no, I've never lost business where I was the low bidder in sealed bid scenario. I have, however, won business when I was not the low bidder. This occurred when I was second highest bidder, and the winning bidder did not follow the instructions of the bid, did not include the appropriate notarizations, bid bonds, or was barred from being awarded the bid because of unpaid State sales tax.

    If you're asking whether I've ever QUOTED a job (versus a sealed BID situation) and the entity chose a higher-priced product, then, yes, I have lost business to the higher priced quote, given the same quality. What have I done about it? Since many of my prospects and clients are municipal entities, I let them know that their job is to provide taxpayers with the best products for the best price; not by what vendor sponsored the buffet at their latest park & recreation society conference. Unfortunately, this strong arm tactic has only resulted in my making a bad name for myself in certain geographic markets. Public servants rarely appreciate being told who they're accountable to, unfortunately.

    "dont' raise the two wrongs" argument?

    I see. Why is it that wrongs comitted against blacks are bad, but wrongs committed against whites are OK?

    Confused
    quote:
    I have, however, won business when I was not the low bidder. This occurred when I was second highest bidder, and the winning bidder did not follow the instructions of the bid, did not include the appropriate notarizations, bid bonds, or was barred from being awarded the bid because of unpaid State sales tax.

    Hmmm... So you think your logic of "The Lowest Bidder" always wins still holds up. You just contradicted it.... and YOUR GUESSES are messes! i.e. It proves you DON'T KNOW and are therefore UNQUALIFIED to comment...

    Quit promoting your self-interest. "REVERSE DISCRIMINATION" please!!!

    So I guess you're in favor of the pre-Civil Rights status quo? You say there can be no "discrimination"... so what does that leave us with?

    If you feel that AA, etc. are "government-sponsored policies of racial discrimination" then you are of course saying that NO ATTEMPT to right the WRONGS of historical racial inequities should have been enacted.

    So you propose that SEGREGATION type of policies should have free reign... besides what can you do. You don't want to "discriminate"?

    Well... POST YOUR SOLUTIONS!! already! All I've heard is WHINING!!

    You are here to promote YOUR self-interest then you have the nerve to be upset with others (as you perceive) promoting their own.

    I fail to understand your thought process!...and why the hell you think you are fooling anyone with your pretense that you are about "fairness".... BULLSHIT!
    quote:
    I see. Why is it that wrongs comitted against blacks are bad, but wrongs committed against whites are OK?

    To rehash what I have said before to such ignorance:

    The Criminal Justice System is completely based
    on the idea that TWO WRONGS DO MAKE A RIGHT!

  • An individual who violates the liberities of another has their liberties violated.

    So unless you feel that crimes should go unpunished then your adherence to this axiom is suspect and, for sure, as selective as your indignation when it comes to your White brethren vs. Black/Minorities.

    You are the one with the issues!!

    In the spirit of the BS you and "your ilk" like to say:
    ARE BLACK PEOPLE LYNCHIN' WHITES?
    ARE BLACKS FORCING WHITES BY FORCE OF LAW TO ATTEND LOWER QUALITY SCHOOLS?
    ARE BLACKS ENSLAVING WHITES or otherwise profitting on the labor of Whites more than Whites are themselves? HUH?

    Don't make comparisons that don't compare PAL!
    The discrimination of segregation and the so-called "discrimination" you describe are in no way compatible, comparable, etc.

    You aren't that dumb! And I don't know why you think we are!

    Yet and still, you still have WHITE MEN to blame for this mess. Blacks did not draft or enact Civil Rights Bills... if we did please correct me with FACTS.

    Your whole point in being here in the first place speaks volumes, not to mention your whole idea wherein all you are doing is promoting your self-interest.

    Sorry, WE DON'T GIVE A DAMN about your "interest"! You have not helped "your cause" be coming here with that BS!

    NEXT!!!!!!!!
  • quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:


    Hmmm... So you think your logic of "The Lowest Bidder" always wins still holds up. You just contradicted it.... and YOUR GUESSES are messes! i.e. It proves you DON'T KNOW and are therefore UNQUALIFIED to comment...[/QUOTE]

    Dear Angry (silly) Black Man (ABM from this point forward):

    I specifically stated "lowest QUALIFIED bidder." If a bidder fails to include the required documentation with his bid, it can result in him being disqualified.

    I'll type more slowly next time, so you're sure to read everything, as opposed to only what you want to read.

    How old are you?

    What do you do for a living?

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