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Affirmative Action primarily benefit White Women!!! Not minorities!!

J JuneBugA1
Yet many white people love to whine and bitch about AA who TARGET ONLY black people as the ones who benefit when it is the farthest thing from the truth.

Their racism overlooks the fact it is white women who greatly benefit from AA and it is their bigotry that causes them to use AA as a reason to whine and bitch about blacks taking jobs from white men and which is a damn lie. How many times blacks have been castigated regarding AA from white men and women Eek yet it is their race that takes full benefit of it! Hypocrites!

http://www.geneseo.edu/~bennett/lousy.pdf

Affirmative action was orginally designed to help minorities, but women-especially white
women-have made the greatest gains as a result of these programs"(Gross, 1996).

"Some observers argue that women have made huge strides! with the help of affirmative
action. They now hold 40 percent of all corporate middle-management jobs, and the number of women-owned businesses has grown by 57 percent since 1982"(Blackwood, 1995). "Affirmative action was desinged to give qualified minorities a chance to compete on equal footing with Whites" (Chappell, 1995). Equal opportunities for the blacks, for the most part, has remained more wishfulthinking than fact. Black students are continuing to struggle to seek an education, black business owners are still competing against their White counterparts, and black workers are experienceing an unemployment rate twice that of Whites and hold dead-end, labor-intensive, low-paying jobs.


http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20031222-091120-7505r.htm

More U.S. (white) women crack glass ceiling

CHICAGO, Dec. 22 (UPI) -- For the first time since tracking began 20 years ago, U.S. women outnumber men in higher paying, white collar managerial and professional occupations.

The gap will continue because of a self-perpetuating cycle of workplace gains for women, according to international outplacment firm Chicago-based Challenger, Gray & Christmas.

"As a growing number move into upper management roles, those further down the ladder will reap the benefits by increasingly being targeted for advancement," said John A. Challenger, chief executive officer of Challenger, Gray & Christmas.

Bureau of Labor Statistics data indicates that, as of Nov. 30, women represent 50.6 percent of the 48 million employees in management, professional and related occupations.

In 1983, the first year the government began recording gender data for its occupational statistics, women accounted for 40.9 percent of managers and professionals.

"At the computer, women are just as productive as men," said Challenger. "This fact alone has opened up a world of opportunity for women and is bringing an end to outdated concepts like the glass ceiling."

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.

[This message was edited by JuneBug on December 25, 2003 at 08:52 PM.]

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.

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James Wesley ChesterJames Wesley ChesterA1
True.

The biggest reason for the lack of success of businesses owned by African American males is the lack of money.

The second reason is lack of management experience.

The third reason is "The Wall." Prime contractors will conspire, yes conspire,to keep the contract from "getting away." The prime will conspire with a European subcontractor to keep you from getting.

The fourth reason is putting companies in the names of wives, or girl friends.

The fifth reason is pure and simple stealing.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.
L Lofton (Guest)
Hello JuneBug,

"Affirmative action was originally designed to help minorities, but women-especially white.."

and closer to the truth, I might add, "Affirmative Action was originally designed to help minorities"...."but in the real truly benefited Caucasian women, illegal immigrants, undocumented immigrants, Black women, .......and few if any Black men."

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton
Y Yssys (Guest)
You know white women also network and mentor. This was in a copy of Essence magazine last year. Sisters and brothers need mentors/mentoring to get into many of these positions also something that whites often freely give to their own, male or female. So the issue is still where is the level playing field?
J JuneBugA1
quote:
I always find it rather odd that white women pay more for their cookies than blacks at those affirmative action bake sales that keep popping up on university campuses.


Right RicardoMath great point you make! The reason for the cookie sale that makes blacks the cheapest cookies is to highlight the AA policy.

But many more white kids get into universities than blacks with sub-standard qualifications because their parents and grand parents are alumni but they want to deny special circumstances for blacks. Why what is behind the effort to take special circumstances from blacks but not whites? And who really deserves to get in, rich to middle class white kids of alumni who had many advantages in life or that black kid who never had a family member to ever earn a degree? The AA policy uses the word "minority" but it is blacks that are targeted and castigated by stupid bigoted hate filled whites and many who have an abundance of advantages.

I think the cookie sale says much of what the general population of white parents teaches their children who don't have a reason to complain from all the advantages they have from the day they are born!

Since it is white women who are likely to displace white men by AA policy why do I not hear white men complain about white women taking their jobs and undeservingly being promoted and with all of the negative descriptions they use when targeting blacks?

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.
HueyHueyA1
Maybe that's why you don't hear about Ann Coulter talk about AA, as much as she talks trash about how liberals in America are somehow traitors.

The moment that she disses AA and minorities, she will automatically discrediting herself as well, because how can she question the credentials of a minority without anyone questioning her credentials, if AA helps both minorities and women?
NmaginateNmaginateA1
quote:
Since it is white women who are likely to displace white men by AA policy why do I not hear white men complain about white women taking their jobs and undeservingly being promoted and with all of the negative descriptions they use when targeting blacks?
OH! They'll complain about it! Perhaps not in public, especially in professions that are suppose to be "men's work"... But the bottom line is when it's White women it at least "Stays In The Family"...
MBMMBMA1
quote:
Originally posted by JuneBug:

Since it is white women who are likely to displace white men by AA policy why do I not hear white men complain about white women taking their jobs and undeservingly being promoted and with all of the negative descriptions they use when targeting blacks?


Because it's much easier to target black folks than their white wives and sisters! By attacking AA - through blacks - they attack the program without calling white women out.


There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life
that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela
MBMMBMA1
Well, I'm not sure I understand your question completely. Implicit in white folks' approach to AA, though, is the extraordinary dishonesty/hypocrisy that while they complain about blacks, in reality it is white women who benefit most. If that is what you are asking then it is wholly appropriate for us to identify this.

Ask me again if I didn't answer your question.


There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life
that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela
HueyHueyA1
I'm sorry MBM. I was writing it in a hurry, but I'll ask the question again.

If white women are the largest beneficiaries of affirmative action (AA), and many white folks are against AA, then why we (either as individuals, in groups or as a ethnicity) don't call out the Rush Limbaughs and Bill O'Reillys and other opposers of AA, why are they hypocritically complaining about blacks benefitting from AA when white women benefit from AA the most?
sunnubiansunnubianA1
Huey,

It seems to me to be equivalent to the image of "welfare" being painted black. When in reality, the majority of beneficiaries of America's welfare and all other social programs are white, as long as they can paint a black face on it they are sure to have no questions, protest of an end to it. So, as long as they have the image of Affirmative Action painted black, there will be no questions or protest of its ending, because as long as politics and propaganda has made it appear that the only beneficiaries of Affirmative Actions are black people, who gives a **** if it is dismantled; with those who want it dismatled being the only ones who truly know or believe the effects it will have on ALL minorities in this country, including women. And as we know, women have always been the expendibles, the first to be sacrificed in pursuit of the men of powers that be's quest for absolute control and dominance of the masses.
S sergeantA2
So Junebug, ultimately this makes supporters of affirm action nothing more than "sellouts"? An interesting stance.

According to sunnibian, "the majority of beneficiaries of America's welfare and all other social programs are white". This means that those who oppose or wish to curtail growth in these programs cannot be labeled 'racists', since after all, they are doing this to their own 'white beneficiaries'. Another interesting stance.
FaheemFaheemA1
Huey question is an interesting one. The reason why you will never here Rush, Bill, Sean, and all the other devils, I mean lying liars speak about how white women have benefited from Affirmative Action is because their wives are white, their moms are white, their aunts, nieces and daughters are white. No self respecting white man would be caught dead out there degrading white women just to destroy affirmative action. White women baring the ones who chase Black men identify with white men, so while they are the biggest beneficiaries of Affirmative Action you will not catch them out front proclaiming such because this puts them at odds with white men. These folks are loyal to one another and they have Negroes like sergeant who is as loyal to their cause as they are. How sick is that!

-------------------------
"We got to organize ourselves, We got to mobilize and there can't be no confusion in our collective solution, If not for ourselves, then for our kids, because we know who our enemy is!"

DPZ "for the hood"

More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
HueyHueyA1
quote:
Originally posted by sergeant:
So Junebug, ultimately this makes supporters of affirm action nothing more than "sellouts"? An interesting stance.

According to sunnibian, "the majority of beneficiaries of America's welfare and all other social programs are white". This means that those who oppose or wish to curtail growth in these programs cannot be labeled 'racists', since after all, they are doing this to their own 'white beneficiaries'. Another interesting stance.


No what it means that the ones (like Rush, Bill, Sean and others) who are fervently against AA are only against it when it's benefitting people of color who don't look like them, yet look the other way when ww are benefitting from AA instead of nonwhite minorities.

It doesn't make them sellouts...but it certainly makes them hypocrites.
sunnubiansunnubianA1
"According to sunnibian, "the majority of beneficiaries of America's welfare and all other social programs are white". This means that those who oppose or wish to curtail growth in these programs cannot be labeled 'racists', since after all, they are doing this to their own 'white beneficiaries'. Another interesting stance."

Well, Sarge, don't they call it friendly fire in the military?
And they keep the face of the victims of oppression in this country painted black, therefore, no one notices that poor whites fall victim the bigotry as well in this country, they always have and they, just like a few women always have been and always will be in the "expendible" group.

So, what I am saying is that they are will to sacrifice some of their own in order to secure and hold a place of racially stratified dominance in this country as they do throughout the world.
N NorlandA1
That's when ole Mother Nature "oops everybody upsidedahead" with those mudslides, fires, earthquakes, tsunamis, floods and everything else she's capable of and puts it all in its proper perspective. All one color then, DEAD!!

***********
The petty bourgeoisie are the first to sell out. When they obtain status their lives generally lose both content and significance. - Black Consciousness
NmaginateNmaginateA1
quote:
Originally posted by sergeant:
No no, I got it. They are going to ensure this 'racially stratified dominance' by allowing some of their own race to be improperly or inaccurately 'stratified', correct?

Kind of like ensuring a product's quality by breaking some of them.


(whewwwww, the nuts are out tonight)
NO... It's kind of like KNOWING HISTORY!

... and not basing your opinions of unfounded assumptions or on fanciful public pronouncements, whether its historical principles (Democracy, etc.) or current policy...

Assumptions like this country was ever set up to benefit ALL the people... and the pronouncement that ALL men are created "equal" means that that is what ALL men, especially those that assume power really ever believed and ever tried to ensure...

You can let those "wonderful" ideas blind you... But, you must acknowledge that you are basing a lot of faith that those ideas/ideals are the true motivating if not primary factors involved in the "hearts of men"....

I understand though... you are willing to believe everything you hear!
LA Les AptC3
Jim:

Interesting points, all.

However, let me give you a taste of being a white contractor trying to get business in the City of Philadelphia.

I can't.

Do you know why?

1. Minority set-asides, known as "MBEs", or Minority Owned Business Enterprise set-asides.
As long as you are a certified MBE, regardless of your financial status, you qualify. Mayor Street's millionaire black friends benefit from this, as do wealthy black contractors.

2 Women set-asides, known as "WBEs", or Women Owned Business Enterprises. See above. Double if you're a woman AND a minority.

I'm neither.

You need to remember that, despite cries to employ more minority talent in the building of both the Philadelphia Eagles and the Philadelphia Phillies Stadiums, there just aren't enough minorities employed in the trades to accomodate politicians' demands for inclusion.
K Kevin41A1
Well Les,
9 times out of ten the majority of contractors (not subs) are white guys and the subs are also. It seems as if many whites speak from an entitlement premise where all white competition(prime and sub) is to be satisfied FIRST and the remnants are to be used for affirmative action efforts. Well hell, think about why there have to be laws in the first place to rectify everything from being lilly. If things really were fair and equitable, AA would be a non-issue. I am not about to go in the whole societal history thing....I cut that out with whites and conservative blacks ages ago.....we all know what the reality of things are in america...so lets not pretend........
LA Les AptC3
Kevin:

9 times out of 10?

Where do you get your statistics?

Let's assume you're correct.

Further, let's assume the "reality" of America is some evil conspiracy, as you portray.

Perhaps the reason that is is because huge contracting firms are owned by white guys. Guys that submit PUBLIC bids to bid on PUBLICLY-advertised RFPs for PUBLIC jobs.

Minority firms are free to bid a general contractors but, apparently, they don't.

Is this the winning bidders' faults? Or, is it their fault that more black business owners haven't chosen to become general contractors?

Or, perhaps more minority business owners should get into the contracting business, right?

I don't have an answer.
NmaginateNmaginateA1
quote:
Further, let's assume the "reality" of America is some evil conspiracy, as you portray.
Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Come up with something original...

If you want to talk about contracts and set-asides.... Haul out all the relevant stats and don't just talk about it!

You contradict your own self by saying on one hand that you (projecting yourself to be the White Businessman/Contractor IN GENERAL) can't get a city contract in Philly because of Minority/Women set-asides yet on the other stating that there are not enough Minorities Contractors/Businesses/Employees, etc. to go around.

Which One IS IT?

Are all the Blacks and Women, etc. taking ALL the Contracts or not?

And you talk about Philly.... What about all the other cities? What do you really expect us to believe about them?

The White Male is given such a hard time in this country.... BOOOO FREAKIN' WHOOOOOOOOOO!!

Come with the stats that show Minorities dominating any such field.... Philly, or otherwise...

You can leave your imagined (whining)... I mean preaching for the White Choir that sings that "Woe Is Me Song!" Bring the stats that support your what's implicit in your statement!
NmaginateNmaginateA1
quote:
Perhaps the reason that is is because huge contracting firms are owned by white guys. Guys that submit PUBLIC bids to bid on PUBLICLY-advertised RFPs for PUBLIC jobs.

Minority firms are free to bid a general contractors but, apparently, they don't.
When close to 80% of jobs in general are filled via networking and are not advertised - and knowing the way things 'work' in business world, public or private... - do you honestly expect contracting to deviate from the basic norm.

No conspiracy... it's just business as usual or the results of "the way things were"....

You can't escape history!
K Kweli4RealA1
Why is it that White males are so filled with anger when it comes to set-aside programs, when they (the programs) account for a mere 10%, if that, of opportunities? When anywhere from 60-80% of projects are non-competitive, bid-rigged, or handed out based on patronage? (per 2001 DOL study)

Apparently, it's as Kevin41 noted, all White opportunities/needs must be satisfified first.

It's like the White student that doesn't get a undergrad, Medical or Law school slot and the blame falls on the 3% of "minority" students, not the 40% that are legacies or lesser qualified Whites.

But than again, lets not confound their myths with facts. Because their indignation won't allow them to see.
LA Les AptC3
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Why is it that White males are so filled with anger when it comes to set-aside programs, when they (the programs) account for a mere 10%, if that, of opportunities? When anywhere from 60-80% of projects are non-competitive, bid-rigged, or handed out based on patronage? (per 2001 DOL study)

Apparently, it's as Kevin41 noted, all White opportunities/needs must be satisfified first.

It's like the White student that doesn't get a undergrad, Medical or Law school slot and the blame falls on the 3% of "minority" students, not the 40% that are legacies or lesser qualified Whites.



Kweli:

I'm not getting angry.

I don't think set aside programs should exist, that's all. Affirmative action and set aside programs are simply another name for racial discrimination, which I ahbor in any manner, regardless of what race suffers from their existence.

I also cannot comment on your DOL study, as I'm not familiar with it's details. By the way, where does your "10%" figure come from?

Could you please post a link to both that and to the DOL study to which you refer?

"White opportunities must be satisfied first?"

How about this: I'm a white guy, yet I haven't been in business for 30 years, like some of the other businesses in my field, so I haven't seen the benefits of 30 years of networking, like older business owners have. In fact, I don't expect to. It's more of a "the rich get richer" circle instead of a "white guys get richer, black guys keep getting hosed" scenario, as you assert.

Why are you so quick to think it's a racial thing, as opposed to simply relationships between businesses and politicians that stretch back for years?

Familiar with this gem, uttered by Philadelphia mayor John Street, at an NAACP affair?:

"The brothers and sisters are in control in this city..."

Lots of black business owners and campaign contributors to mayor Street have been quite well-enriched during his tenure.

So, please, let's not say it doesn't happen.
LA Les AptC3
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
When close to 80% of jobs in general are filled via networking and are not advertised - and knowing the way things 'work' in business world, public or private... - do you honestly expect contracting to deviate from the basic norm.
[/QUOTE]

Nmag:

Stick to the topic at hand, willya? I said "bidding", not "contracting."

PUBLIC BIDDING, which requires FINANCIALLY QUALIFIED contractors to bid.

I will again ask the question: Who's fault is it that more black-owned businesses are not bidding on and winning more PUBLIC BIDS?
LA Les AptC3
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
Further, let's assume the "reality" of America is some evil conspiracy, as you portray.
Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Come up with something original...

If you want to talk about contracts and set-asides.... Haul out all the relevant stats and don't just talk about it!

You contradict your own self by saying on one hand that you (projecting yourself to be the White Businessman/Contractor IN GENERAL) can't get a city contract in Philly because of Minority/Women set-asides yet on the other stating that there are not enough Minorities Contractors/Businesses/Employees, etc. to go around.

Which One IS IT?

Are all the Blacks and Women, etc. taking ALL the Contracts or not?

And you talk about Philly.... What about all the other cities? What do you really expect us to believe about them?

The White Male is given such a hard time in this country.... BOOOO FREAKIN' WHOOOOOOOOOO!!

Come with the stats that show Minorities dominating any such field.... Philly, or otherwise...

You can leave your imagined (whining)... I mean preaching for the White Choir that sings that "Woe Is Me Song!" Bring the stats that support your what's implicit in your statement!


Sir:

Do you wish to have a civil discussion, or are you going to attempt to intimidate me with your "angry black man" shoutdown routine?

Adults debate the subject matter; juveniles attack the debater.

Once more, for the hard of hearing:

I'm a small business owner, not a multimillion dollar general contractor. I don't build roads, bridges and stadiums.

What I said, if you chose to read it, was that I've lost work as a subcontractor, because of minority set asides.

My other statement was that, if more minority subcontractors existed, IN GENERAL, their mere existence would be represented by their share of municipal work. Since they DO NOT exist in number, they're obviously underrepresented. I suggest you take a statistics course, instead of blaming the results of the statistics on some white conspiracy.

I cannot speak intelligently about other cities, since I don't do work there. Sorry.

The bottom line is that work is out there for those willing to bust their asses to get it. Believe me, in the 5 years since I started my business, I've battled the "but we've always bought from Joe Blow Company......." so, please don't assume that every white business owner is getting rich off the old boy network.

Incidentally, "affirmative action" (what,exactly does the action affirm, anyway?), is nothing more than racial discrimination given a nice, fuzzy name. How is it that this form of discrimination is acceptable in your book?


Next?
MBMMBMA1
A few honest questions:

1) How much business have you lost to companies for competitive reasons, from competitors who just offered a better product/service/price package?

2) How much business have you lost to companies willing to generally "bust their asses" more than you?

3) If there is such a financial incentive (set asides) for minority firms where you are, why is there still such a shortage of companies looking to do that work? Where there is opportunity, there is typically a line of people/companies looking to cash in on it. To what do you attribute the fact that this appears not to be the case where you are?


There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life
that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela


[This message was edited by MBM on December 31, 2003 at 10:35 AM.]
MBMMBMA1
quote:
Originally posted by Les Apt:

Incidentally, "affirmative action" (what,exactly does the action affirm, anyway?), is nothing more than racial discrimination given a nice, fuzzy name. How is it that this form of discrimination is acceptable in your book?


Well, why do you think Richard Nixon created the program in the first place?

BTW - here's a link to a thread that may offer some additional perspective on this.

There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life
that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela
K Kevin41A1
A white male in amerikkka as the victim....funny indeed...after 400 years of being oblivious (intentionally) to the plight of blacks....all of a sudden white people wake up and can understand discrimination....wow, what a revelation!!! Until now, it was the problem of "those people", now that 100% dominance by white males is not possible, 80% is too damn small of a share for them.....Les...don't waste my time with that reverse-racism nonsense.....because before you or any other white male can cry reverse-racism, you must acknowledge racism as the status quo......and you know damn well whites for the most part never acknowledge the obvious when it paints them in an undesirable light....hell this country has not even apologized for slavery...and that was real obvious....so why would I waste my time trying to convince the masters of cognitive dissonance anything? That would be spinning my wheels in the true sense.....and that I do not do.....because time is too precious to be f-king it off........
K Kweli4RealA1
Les Apt, You seem to prove my larger point with your, "I'm a White guy. Yet, I haven't been in business for 30 yrs, like some of the other businesses in my field. SWo I haven't seen the benefits of 30 yrs of networking, like older business owners have. It's more of a 'the rich get richer' circle ..."

My point was/is, the blind eye White businesses turn to losing a majority of opportunities to White businesses for non-competitive reasons; while zeroing in on AA/Set-aside programs, that constitute a relatively small percentage of the opportunities, as the evil that is to be stamped out.

It would seem that your ire would be better directed at those preventing you from the food on the table, rather than those that collect crumbs that have fallen to the floor.

You ask, why a racial thing as opposed to relationships that stretch back for years? I don't know the field you are in, but I'm sure you realize and/or recognize that 30 years ago, Blacks were routinely excluded from construction trade apprenticeship programs and the bidding process. So what else could it possibly be if one is barred from establishing those key relationships because of one's race.

If you were to read the legislative histories regarding the creation of such programs and/or the court decisions upholding AA/Set-aside programs, especially in the construction trades, you will see they were created to rectify this exclusion.

Again, your "Street" comment regarding the running of the city goes to my initial point. Why is it a grievious sin to proclaim, what you have accepted as "just the way it is", politicians handing out political favors to their cronies. Could it possibly be that in this case it is a Black politician benefiting his Black (a other) cronies, just as generations of White politicians benefited White businesses?

{And please, don't respond with the "two wrongs don't make a right" rationalization}
LA Les AptC3
Kevin:

There is no such thing as "reverse racism."

Sorry, but nice try.

Racism sucks in every one of it's manifestations. I haven't just woken up to it, as you so ignorantly assume. Just as ignorantly as you assume that, because of my race, I'm the bad guy. Talk about racism, huh?

And I haven't been around for 400 years, so why spew your venom in my direction? What knowledge of my friendships, and the racial composition of those friendshis do you possess?
Talk about racism, huh? Look in the mirror, Kevie.

"AmeriKKKa?"

Wow. You're pretty bitter, huh, Kevie? And a racist to boot. Nice stereotyping.

How would you propose that his "country" apologize for the abomination of slavery?

And to whom? To you? How recently were YOU enslaved, Kevie?
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