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quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
quote:
Originally posted by kevin1122:
quote:
"When posed to someone who DOES believe in God, the question conceptually doesn't really make sense. If the world did exist, but it turned out there was no God, then it would mean that the world exists as it does now, just having gotten there on its own."

NO. The question does not require you answer under the assumption that things are the way they are now, example; If you believe it is impossible for humans to exist without God, then your answer would be that planet earth would be different because humans wouldn't exist.
But most people who believe that humans wouldn't exist also would say that the whole universe wouldn't exist. So we're back to my original answer: if there were no god, the world would be different in that it wouldn't exist.


That's assuming I believe in a God ... who is also creator of the universe.

But "most people" probably believe this.
Hi kresge,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I do think that this:

quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
an argument could be offered that such values are more than likely derived from such this as human physiology and morphology.


breaks down, however, because of this:

quote:

That which is pleasurable is the good. That which is not is the bad. This is mitigated, however, to the extent that I come in contact with another. It is then that one has to deal with issues of power.



It may be physiologically pleasurable to me to harm a defenseless person. But it isn't good (on a normative societal level) for me to do so. However, the logical outworking of Nietzsche's "superman" would justify my harming a defenseless person so long as I had the power to do it. This is where, I think, Whirling Moat's "anarchy without God" prediction is germane and spot on.

If there isn't a normative source of right/wrong, then it truly is every man (woman) for himself.

My legitimate pleasure could be your legitimate pain...

There's nothing I'm aware of in my physiology that would drive me to do the right thing if doing the (wrong) pleasurable thing could be done without compromising my power.

If there's an "ultimate power" (real or constructed) that trumps my or your power, that value system would take precedence and provide the basis for the observed normative morality that we observe.

(shulamite, who's a bit sleepy and wonders if she's still being coherent...)
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I'm glad someone is paying attention. lol


I support accurate citing... Wink


quote:
Is a "source" necessary to determine behavioral value?


I think so. How would you suggest that behavioral values arise?

quote:

Values can be contradictory. Would contradictory values issue from the same source?



I'd say that 1. sometimes values seem contradictory when in reality they are not. We have finite understanding of "how things work in our world", so I'd be hesistant to assign inconsistency to a set of ideas for which I may have a limited understanding.

I'd also say 2. that if values are truly contradictory AND arose from the same source, one of those values has somehow become corrupted over time (as a result of being removed from the "source"). Here my Christian theology betrays me, but it is what it is.

quote:
Perhaps they are behavioral adaptations which are conducive to orderly human societies?


What benefit is it to me to have an "orderly" society? Unless I don't have enough power to dictate what my society does. (this alludes to kresge's Nietzsche superman example).

quote:
There is a famous problem from the history of geometry having to do with Euclid's "parallel postulate".


I'm not going to even front. There is no way I can answer this and do it the justice it deserves. I'll *try* to come up with a retort to this excellent example (... in a week or two, after I've had time to figure it out lol)

(shulamite, who really is sleepy and now going to bed...)
quote:
Originally posted by shulamite:
Hi kresge,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I do think that this:

quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
an argument could be offered that such values are more than likely derived from such this as human physiology and morphology.


breaks down, however, because of this:

quote:

That which is pleasurable is the good. That which is not is the bad. This is mitigated, however, to the extent that I come in contact with another. It is then that one has to deal with issues of power.



It may be physiologically pleasurable to me to harm a defenseless person. But it isn't good (on a normative societal level) for me to do so. However, the logical outworking of Nietzsche's "superman" would justify my harming a defenseless person so long as I had the power to do it. This is where, I think, Whirling Moat's "anarchy without God" prediction is germane and spot on.


I think you may be misreading Nietzsche. He's not that crude. More when I'm not tired.

quote:

If there isn't a normative source of right/wrong, then it truly is every man (woman) for himself.


One can argue that orderly societies have survival value for individuals.

quote:

My legitimate pleasure could be your legitimate pain...


True. That is often the case where men and women are involved. Wink

quote:

There's nothing I'm aware of in my physiology that would drive me to do the right thing if doing the (wrong) pleasurable thing could be done without compromising my power.


Yes ... and that's why my mama took that strap to my backside causing me to be the good chap I am today.

Morality is learned at your mother's knee ... or maybe at the end of her foot ...

Trained my physiology real good. Razz

quote:

If there's an "ultimate power" (real or constructed) that trumps my or your power, that value system would take precedence and provide the basis for the observed normative morality that we observe.


And where was that ultimate power during the Holocaust?
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by shulamite:

quote:
Is a "source" necessary to determine behavioral value?


I think so. How would you suggest that behavioral values arise?



Every day one can see young men with their pants sagging below their buttes.

They are observing a behavioral norm.

In fact, every day one can observe all types of behavioral norms ... and doubt very much that they come from God.

From whence do they come?
Oshun Auset:
quote:
""Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." - Andre Gide "
That's one of my favorite sayings. I've used it against many a theists who would rather believe some unsubstantuated ancient text about a God that supposedly knows all the answers, over the scientists who seeks to know the answers. Excellent point my friend.

Kresge:
quote:
"I noticed that you excised the first part of my response, which is unfortunate. You also assert a conclusion that I do not make. I do not say that I would act morally but everyone else would not. I also did not raise a question about integrity. Those are your words, not mine. I am thinking much more along the lines of faith development theories and how different people handle matters of cognitive dissonance. Some people are able to integrate disparate concepts or experiences, and others are not. Again, this is not a matter of integrity. It is a matter, I would maintain, of human psycho-social life. This was the point of the last part of my commentary. What I describe in terms of first-year student behavior is pretty well documented (binge drinking, sexual promiscuity, etc.)"
If I misunderstood you, I can assure you that was not my intention and I apologize. However; I still maintain that if everyone were convinced their version of God didn't exist, chaos would not erupt; after the innitial shock, they would eventually get over it. I say this because when I came to this reality, and when other atheists I know of came to this reality, I don't know of anybody who was even tempted to change their behavior.

Vox:
quote:
"But most people who believe that humans wouldn't exist also would say that the whole universe wouldn't exist. So we're back to my original answer: if there were no god, the world would be different in that it wouldn't exist."
Thanks for answering the question.

Kevin
Peace....



quote:
Originally posted by shulamite:
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:

There would be serious civil unrest it it were somehow determined that God did not exist.


Why do you think this would happen?



It is my belief that social order always rests upon a system of ethics which are undergirded by the supposed directives of some entity perceived as being the true authority of the world.

We have to have a way to resolve conflicts. If the law which resolves our conflicts are clearly created by no greater authority than others like ourselves, it becomes very difficult, especially in lean times or when resources are not evenly distributed , to convince those in need that they are bound to respect the law.

Every great civilization of note that I have known has come into existence with some core principle or idea which invigorates the civilization and provides the cohesiveness needed to create the community. Within this ideology is always some overiding principle tied to man's purpose and natural right which are provided by a greater authority.

Without said authority the basis of unity would be no more than fear. Machiavelli spoke to the danger of a nation comprised of those fearful of the government..The fear will eventually turn into hate which will degenerate into a viscious repetition of rebellions.

I will expand upon this later...



Whirling Moat
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
Every great civilization of note that I have known has come into existence with some core principle or idea which invigorates the civilization and provides the cohesiveness needed to create the community. Within this ideology is always some overiding principle tied to man's purpose and natural right which are provided by a greater authority.

Without said authority the basis of unity would be no more than fear. Machiavelli spoke to the danger of a nation comprised of those fearful of the government.. The fear will eventually turn into hate which will degenerate into a viscious repetition of rebellions.



Not that I entirely disagree .... but even with the presence of said greater authority ... isn't the basis of unity still basically fear?

Secondly, can't the basis of unity be provided by secular ideals (e.g., The Bill of Rights)?
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:

natural right which are provided by a greater authority.


Authority is necessary for order.. however the concept of a "God" being that authority is not necessary..

In addition, human belief in God has not thwarted the destructions of society.. or the threat thereof.. anarchy is not the exclusive theoretical territory of an atheist global community.. it is a historical reality under the most god fearing... including genocide...
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:Secondly, can't the basis of unity be provided by secular ideals (e.g., The Bill of Rights)?


This line of thinking reminds me of Immanuel Kant... Smile

Wow, WM and HB. I don't have time to reply in depth yet, but will. You both raise great points.

WM... in short, I agree with you re the inherent need for the concept of a "true authority".

HB... Nietzche is not that crude, I agree, but the logical outworking of his "superman" concept is, imho. And the "superman" effect is in full force if WM's "true authority" doesn't exist. We do have holocausts... but they are decried. But what if we lived in a world where they aren't?

Also the question about "And where was that ultimate power during the Holocaust?" is the RIGHT question to be discussing, imo. Not Kevin's "There isn't a God, b/c if there was a God, such-and-such wouldn't happen". The pertinent question (imo) is "what KIND of God lets such-and-such happen?" if our concept of God is both all "good" and all "powerful" (which doesn't/shouldn't allow for suffering in our world). That's a tough, tough discussion but more realistically framed, given the undeniable moral norms that we observe.

(shulamite, who is unfortunately doing a hit-and-run- post for want of time...)
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Every day one can see young men with their pants sagging below their buttes. They are observing a behavioral norm.


Okay... I meant behavioral norms that are ethically/morally relevant with regard to potential harm to others.

No one is harmed by sagging pants (unless the butte is FUGLY and the draws are dirty... lol).
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:

natural right which are provided by a greater authority.


Authority is necessary for order.. however the concept of a "God" being that authority is not necessary..

In addition, human belief in God has not thwarted the destructions of society.. or the threat thereof.. anarchy is not the exclusive theoretical territory of an atheist global community.. it is a historical reality under the most god fearing... including genocide...


yeah

Civilizations have come and gone. And so have many attendant human horrors.

But the threat of mass atheism (in the sense that most understand by it) is a really modern (and recent) phenomenon.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by shulamite:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Every day one can see young men with their pants sagging below their buttes. They are observing a behavioral norm.


Okay... I meant behavioral norms that are ethically/morally relevant with regard to potential harm to others.



Wall Street.


Yeah, I hear you. What happens now as a behavioral norm certainly flies in the face of (Jewish) teaching about lending, usury and casting lots (gambling).
quote:
Originally posted by kevin1122:
Okay; supposed your God didn't exist? How would things be different than they are right now?


If a child never had a parent to teach it, love it, nurture it, care for it, hug it, feed it, guide it....how does that child normally exist, if they exist long at all?

....and we just had a MAJOR example of this in the news recently....

"Wisdom Is A Woman Awaiting Your Response!"
quote:
Originally posted by kevin1122:
Supposed the world did exist and you were simply wrong concerning the existence of God; how do you think it would be different than it is now?


I stated this in another post: if God did not/does not exist, the world would still go on....afterall, it continued to go on even when God chose to "hide the face" from the people. HowEver, I believe that humans would be much worse off than we are today....and that's even if we could make it to this day and age.

Again, I ask you, if a child has no parent and no contact with any other adult to raise it, what usually happens to that child?

"Wisdom Is A Woman Knowing!"
quote:
Originally posted by ShayaButHer:
quote:
Originally posted by kevin1122:
Okay; supposed your God didn't exist? How would things be different than they are right now?


If a child never had a parent to teach it, love it, nurture it, care for it, hug it, feed it, guide it....how does that child normally exist, if they exist long at all?

....and we just had a MAJOR example of this in the news recently....

"Wisdom Is A Woman Awaiting Your Response!"

ShayaButher,
Would you unpack your analogy a little? It seems to me as it is written that you are equating the world, the universe. or humanity with a child. I am not sure that such an analogy is fitting. There are other systems and structures that exist, thrive, and function that are not anthropological. Why would these not hold in this instance? For example, this type of intervention is not required of systems as varied as plants to galaxies.
Shayabuther asks:
quote:
"If a child never had a parent to teach it, love it, nurture it, care for it, hug it, feed it, guide it....how does that child normally exist, if they exist long at all?

....and we just had a MAJOR example of this in the news recently...."
I don't know of this example you are refering to. I also don't know of any examples to feed off of; I can only assume the child will grow up lacking in those areas.
quote:
"if a child has no parent and no contact with any other adult to raise it, what usually happens to that child?"
I guess it depends upon the age of the child. Of course an infant is gonna die, but if the child is old enough and savy enough to survive in the enviroment he finds himself in, my guess is he will live in a very primitive state. What say you?

Kevin
Peace...


quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
Every great civilization of note that I have known has come into existence with some core principle or idea which invigorates the civilization and provides the cohesiveness needed to create the community. Within this ideology is always some overiding principle tied to man's purpose and natural right which are provided by a greater authority.

Without said authority the basis of unity would be no more than fear. Machiavelli spoke to the danger of a nation comprised of those fearful of the government.. The fear will eventually turn into hate which will degenerate into a viscious repetition of rebellions.



Not that I entirely disagree .... but even with the presence of said greater authority ... isn't the basis of unity still basically fear?

(e.g., The Bill of Rights)?



I would have to passively say yes..

There are many variations of fear...

The fear of immediate pain and loss is the sort which would compel individuals to unite for the sake of surviving in the present..In this sense the consent to join onto a government is due to the here and now...

Of course in the Abrahamic traditions there is a similiar threat, however, I tend to believe that most religionist are compelled more by seeking God's love than the fear of God's retribution.

Having God as the law provider and final arbiter allows everyone to remain equal under a Higher law


I would also say that while to some extent I agree with the premise of those like Thomas Hobbes and others who espouse "Social Contract theory". I think that like the Author of the Declaration of Independence and other framers of the U.S. Constitution, a political cause is always more potent when you insert things like "inalienable rights", and "natures God" into your justification for forming a government or in their case breaking from one.

Without God, where is the justification for looking out for more than your self interest?

Whirling Moat
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:

Without God, where is the justification for looking out for more than your self interest?

Whirling Moat


I think this only applies to those who already believe in God.. If one is not murdering, stealing, living a life as a criminal etc.. etc.. only because some mysterious invisible being called "GOD" said don't do it then yes.. I do believe if all of a sudden in one fell swoop a person comes to accept that God is not real then they would probably enter a life of crime....

However, in the sense of whether the human being is capable of living a moral life irrespective of such cultivation and belief.. I think it's possible...
Peace...


quote:
I think this only applies to those who already believe in God.. If one is not murdering, stealing, living a life as a criminal etc.. etc.. only because some mysterious invisible being called "GOD" said don't do it then yes.. I do believe if all of a sudden in one fell swoop a person comes to accept that God is not real then they would probably enter a life of crime....


There are many in this world suffering a life of sheer poverty and loss who cope and accept their lot due to a belief in an eternal heaven which awaits after you die

Karl Marx is frequently quoted as writing "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people".

There are countless governments which intentionally crafted religion to pacify the starving masses. It is not the rich who would unravel morally since they are satisfied with norms which reward their way of living, it would be the poor.

I often hear many argue that even without the Invisible God they are able to maintain a morally fit life, however, place these same into extreme poverty and then lock them into this condition and provide them one escape which is to break the law....And you will see a criminal emerge..

quote:
However, in the sense of whether the human being is capable of living a moral life irrespective of such cultivation and belief.. I think it's possible...



Of course it is possible, however, this morality without a compass existence is surely subject to deviation. The morality of the atheist is always in a state of flux..As long as a behaviour is socially acceptable it is deemed as morally correct. If you want to see my point take review the moral and ethical norms of 50 years ago for those functioning outside of a strict religious paradigm and compare it to the ethical norms of today..You will see an ascending or descending slope depending on your point of view.


Whirling Moat
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:


Of course it is possible, however, this morality without a compass existence is surely subject to deviation. The morality of the atheist is always in a state of flux..As long as a behaviour is socially acceptable it is deemed as morally correct. If you want to see my point take review the moral and ethical norms of 50 years ago for those functioning outside of a strict religious paradigm and compare it to the ethical norms of today..You will see an ascending or descending slope depending on your point of view.


Whirling Moat


Does one have to be atheist? What if one just doesn't believe in the "invisible" God..? Or doesn't call the supreme authority creator? or..

or..

believes that it is possible for a human being to display greater attributes thus deserving of obeisance?

and Moat.. couldn't we go back and forth throughout history proving and disproving one another depending upon the culture and era?

Regardless, doesn't my original premise stand?
"the human being is capable of living a moral life irrespective of such cultivation and belief.."
Whirling Moat:
quote:
“The morality of the atheist is always in a state of flux..As long as a behaviour is socially acceptable it is deemed as morally correct. If you want to see my point take review the moral and ethical norms of 50 years ago for those functioning outside of a strict religious paradigm and compare it to the ethical norms of today..You will see an ascending or descending slope depending on your point of view.”
I think the same can be done with religious folk; if you look at the moral and ethical norms of those functioning WITHIN the strict religious paradigm of 50 years ago, you will see a difference from those doing it today

Kevin
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
ShayaButher,
Would you unpack your analogy a little? It seems to me as it is written that you are equating the world, the universe. or humanity with a child. I am not sure that such an analogy is fitting. There are other systems and structures that exist, thrive, and function that are not anthropological. Why would these not hold in this instance? For example, this type of intervention is not required of systems as varied as plants to galaxies.


When one creates SomeThing, are they not the owner of what was created, until such time as they give their creation away or until such time as their creation is taken away from them, or until such time as what they created becomes destroyed?

I view God as the Parent, and we as the children.

God lives within each of us, the same way our mothers and fathers live within us; they teach us and pass things down to us...and we either opt to heed their teachings and appreciate what was passed down to us, or not.

But regardless of which we choose, the absense of a parental figure can render a child defunct. We each need guidance, nurturing, love, comfort, assurance, discipline, etc...as children and adults. Many adults who don't receive these constructs when they are little, tend to have a harder time in life until they learn to resolve the absence of and then find these constructs within their lives.

MoreOver, I believe if God did not exist, humans would learn to find SomeThing else to BE their God(s).

"Wisdom Is A Woman Who UnderStands Parenting!"
quote:
Originally posted by kevin1122:
I don't know of this example you are refering to. I also don't know of any examples to feed off of; I can only assume the child will grow up lacking in those areas.


MSN just did a piece on another feral child that was discovered recently. Look that up....and you can go to Information On Feral Children to get a better feel for what feral children go through.

quote:
Originally posted by kevin1122:
I guess it depends upon the age of the child. Of course an infant is gonna die, but if the child is old enough and savy enough to survive in the enviroment he finds himself in, my guess is he will live in a very primitive state. What say you?


Yes, but in order for the child to become "old enough and savvy enough" there must exist certain stimuli within their environment that will help that feral child mature.

We can all exist, WithOut a God to a point. HowEver, it is at the point in which we can no longer answer our own questions that we must consider that there exists SomeThing grand OutSide of our selves; SomeThing that can answer the questions that have definite answers.

"Wisdom Is A Woman Answering Questions!"
Sheyabuther said:
quote:
"MSN just did a piece on another feral child that was discovered recently. Look that up....and you can go to Information On Feral Children to get a better feel for what feral children go through."

Could prehistoric/neanderthal man be simular to what you are refering to? Maybe time allows each generation learns from the previous one and adds to it thus each generation becomes more advanced than the previous.
quote:
"Yes, but in order for the child to become "old enough and savvy enough" there must exist certain stimuli within their environment that will help that feral child mature."

The problem I have with your analogy is, you are comparing adults to children; children's whose brains aren't fully devoloped.
If you are suggesting that humans can't make it without God, I ask you; what about those societies who worship what you might refer to as a "non-existent" God? They aren't running around like feral children!
quote:
"We can all exist, WithOut a God to a point. HowEver, it is at the point in which we can no longer answer our own questions that we must consider that there exists SomeThing grand OutSide of our selves; SomeThing that can answer the questions that have definite answers."

Why not be content with realizing we don't have all the answers but continue looking? Why must we point to something invisible and decide IT has all the answers; especally when there isn't any proof that this invisible being exists?
I think Oshun Auset said it best: "Believe those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it". I couldn't agree more.

Kevin
quote:
MoreOver, I believe if God did not exist, humans would learn to find SomeThing else to BE their God(s).


Confused"SomeThing else to BE"?Confused

If 'god' or a god-concept does not or did not exist, then how does one replace or "find" another 'god' or the god-concept from the beginning?

quote:
Why not be content with realizing we don't have all the answers[?]


Good question.

I don't know if there is one answer for that, however, what jumps out in my mind, is fear. Fear that there may not be an 'answer'. Random happenings for many...unacceptable and or unfathomable.

quote:
but continue looking?
It requires a lot of work for some and are content with whatever floor they reach even thought there are many floors, above or below.

Others aren't even aware that there are, other floors, from the get go.
quote:
Regardless, doesn't my original premise stand?
"the human being is capable of living a moral life irrespective of such cultivation and belief.."



I agree that a individuals can live a morally upright life separate from a belief in God. My points were not about individuals but groups. There is something called group dynamic.


History is sufficient to prove my point. Large civilizations with wide dsparities in quality of life have always required a strong religious undertone to control the poor masses.


Whirling Moat
Peace...


quote:
I think the same can be done with religious folk; if you look at the moral and ethical norms of those functioning WITHIN the strict religious paradigm of 50 years ago, you will see a difference from those doing it today


I agree, however since there is a codified norm for the religious community, when necessary it can be demonstrated that the community is off of the path. There can be a movement toward return to what is proper. The atheist does not have this at their disposal.

What is right to an atheist is the same as what is acceptable in academic circles. Once the provisions have been laid for deviation from a former moral position the transition is easy.

Whirling Moat
quote:
Originally posted by kevin1122:
Could prehistoric/neanderthal man be simular to what you are refering to?


Yes.

quote:
Originally posted by kevin1122:
Maybe time allows each generation learns from the previous one and adds to it thus each generation becomes more advanced than the previous.


Yes....time and SomeThing else. So let me ask you a question: How do you suppose we got from NeAndErthal to our present state of being, besides the age old argument that we "adapt to our surroundings"?

quote:
Originally posted by kevin1122:
The problem I have with your analogy is, you are comparing adults to children; children's whose brains aren't fully devoloped.


Ah, but you missed something in what I said. I said, "in order for the child to become "old enough and savvy enough" there must exist certain stimuli within their environment that will help that feral child mature." If a child's brain, mannerisms, behaviors, world view don't develop fully, how would they grow to be a mature adult who functions normally?

quote:
Originally posted by kevin1122:
If you are suggesting that humans can't make it without God, I ask you; what about those societies who worship what you might refer to as a "non-existent" God? They aren't running around like feral children!


Again, you missed what I said. I never said that humans could not make it WithOut God. In fact, I said that society could function to a point WithOut God. HowEver, Man has already proven what will happen to Man, Animals, Plants and the Earth in general if we are left to our own devices.

quote:
Originally posted by kevin1122:
Why not be content with realizing we don't have all the answers but continue looking?


I know I already shared this same sentiment and suggested that one should be open to searching for the Truth from various directions. I don't see where we DisAgree.

quote:
Originally posted by kevin1122:
Why must we point to something invisible and decide IT has all the answers; especally when there isn't any proof that this invisible being exists?


Ah, now I see where we DisAgree. I don't believe that we are pointing to AnyThing invisible to ReSpect that SomeThing in and OutSide of OurSelves may, in fact, have more answers than we do.

If you will, consider this: Many of us did not PERSONALLY SEE our Great, Great, Great GrandParents...yet that doesn't make their existence and contributions to our lives any less significant. We KNOW that they existed because we bear witness to the existence of our GrandParents, our Parents and our very selves. We BELIEVE in and honor their legacies because we ReCognize and ReSpect the lessons that have been passed down to us, from them.

If we can do that with Our Own, who we know to have existed because we are here, how much more reverance should we give to the Creator, who Created and lived in those in which we came from?

quote:
Originally posted by kevin1122:
I think Oshun Auset said it best: "Believe those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it". I couldn't agree more.


Actually, Kevin, that saying came from André Gide, a FrenchMan, an Atheist, pedophile and sexual abuser of young children...he was also bi-sexual, not homosexual, as suggested given that he had several wives and actually conceived a child with one, but I don't take issue with that given that a person's sexual orientation is just that.



Before you side with Gide, you may want to read up on him....and yeah, I know some of you all don't like Wikipedia, but you can always look elsewhere...LOL.

For You: About André Gide

"Wisdom Is A Woman Dialoguing!"
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor:
Confused"SomeThing else to BE"?Confused

If 'god' or a god-concept does not or did not exist, then how does one replace or "find" another 'god' or the god-concept from the beginning?


That's easy: what do they idolize (to regard with blind adoration or devotion)? What do they "worship"?

People idolize different things every day....could be money, power, or sex....could be material possessions, could be another human being, etc...

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor:
...when responding to Kevin's question regarding why can't people be content that they don't have all of the answers.

Good question.

I don't know if there is one answer for that, however, what jumps out in my mind, is fear. Fear that there may not be an 'answer'. Random happenings for many...unacceptable and or unfathomable.

quote:
but continue looking?
It requires a lot of work for some and are content with whatever floor they reach even thought there are many floors, above or below.

Others aren't even aware that there are, other floors, from the get go.


I suggested that we ask the questions that we can get answers to and patiently wait to "discover" the answers that God would put on offer later, if God ever offers up those answers. That does not suggest that one can't be content until such time comes, if it ever comes. But one needn't live their entire lives only waiting for an answer to SomeThing that they may never get an answer to. Instead, each should seek to be at Peace with the self, others and the EnvIronMent.

When we do this, we are able to climb to those other levels of learning and delve into that knowledge which will truly EnAble us to be EnLightEnd.

The "SpiRitual" quest is not a test of wills; rather, it is a quest of practicing what we believe our Third Eye sees.

"Wisdom Is A Woman Teaching!"
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
Large civilizations with wide dsparities in quality of life have always required a strong religious undertone to control the poor masses.


Whirling Moat


I suppose religion (as it has been practiced) then is for those who need a coping mechanism to mine a society where they least benefit.. or for those that do not fit that category.. a coping mechanism and/or emotionally satisfying answer for things they do not understand and are not curious/objective enough to pursue...
Peace....


quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
Large civilizations with wide dsparities in quality of life have always required a strong religious undertone to control the poor masses.


Whirling Moat


I suppose religion (as it has been practiced) then is for those who need a coping mechanism to mine a society where they least benefit.. or for those that do not fit that category.. a coping mechanism and/or emotionally satisfying answer for things they do not understand and are not curious/objective enough to pursue...



Please expand on your point. I am not sure if I understand what you are saying here.



The Heirophant at Abydos


Whirling Moat
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
Peace....


quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
Large civilizations with wide dsparities in quality of life have always required a strong religious undertone to control the poor masses.


Whirling Moat


I suppose religion (as it has been practiced) then is for those who need a coping mechanism to mine a society where they least benefit.. or for those that do not fit that category.. a coping mechanism and/or emotionally satisfying answer for things they do not understand and are not curious/objective enough to pursue...



Please expand on your point. I am not sure if I understand what you are saying here.



The Heirophant at Abydos


Whirling Moat


Partially reiterating your statement...Religion as it has been practiced is for the poor (as a coping mechanism) and for the fearful and unobjective...

can't really go into why I said that now...

handle your b'ness papi...

I think you understand...

;-)


Seshat in the Lab...
Okay, let me attempt to recalibrate my responce to:

quote:
if God did not exist, humans would learn to find SomeThing else to BE their God(s).


Your statement seems to imply that folks had in mind or knew of, from jump, a 'god'/god-concept in and of itself. Yet however, they don't believe that a, or their, 'god'/god-concept exist.

What I'm asking, is if the idea/thought/concept of 'god' did not exist in the minds/conscious of people to began with, then how is there a "SomeThing else"?

Kind of like saying: Sure their are aliens, but I don't believe in aliens, so I'm gonna find something else to facilitate my belief in aliens.

quote:
I suggested that we ask the questions that we can get answers to and patiently wait to "discover" the answers that God would put on offer later, if God ever offers up those answers


So, no matter how one looks at it, the athiest is azzed out, in terms of seeking 'answers'?

Or,

Are you saying that even though the atheist do not believe in the existence of any kind of 'god' therefor not giving it credit for having the answers, then in your opinion, if they are to get answers to their questions or find what they seek, its coming from 'god' regardless?
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor:
Okay, let me attempt to recalibrate my responce to:

quote:
if God did not exist, humans would learn to find SomeThing else to BE their God(s).


Your statement seems to imply that folks had in mind or knew of, from jump, a 'god'/god-concept in and of itself. Yet however, they don't believe that a, or their, 'god'/god-concept exist.

What I'm asking, is if the idea/thought/concept of 'god' did not exist in the minds/conscious of people to began with, then how is there a "SomeThing else"?

Kind of like saying: Sure their are aliens, but I don't believe in aliens, so I'm gonna find something else to facilitate my belief in aliens.


No, not at all. One doesn't need to have a belief in a God in order to place a high value upon SomeThing else within their life.

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor:
So, no matter how one looks at it, the athiest is azzed out, in terms of seeking 'answers'?

Or,

Are you saying that even though the atheist do not believe in the existence of any kind of 'god' therefor not giving it credit for having the answers, then in your opinion, if they are to get answers to their questions or find what they seek, its coming from 'god' regardless?


I'm saying that just because one doesn't believe they have a Source or connection to a Source, does not necessarily make it so.

A child can deem that their parent can make them sick to their stomach, so much so that the child eventually cuts off the parent, but in no way does that mean that the child then, has no parent. It just means that the child refuses to AcKnowLedge that parent.

So for atheists who refuse to believe, yes, even they will get answers when they open up to the fact that we all come from SomeThing that is larger than us and in and OutSide of OurSelves....whether they call it God or Energy or Ultimate Force is irrelevant. What's important is that we AcKnowLedge that it's there, ReGardless of the fact that we don't have all of the "details" yet.

After all: We didn't create OurSelves.

Finally, I liken it to SomeThing I heard once - A mom and a dad have a child whom they love very much. They do most things to keep their child happy and well rounded.

Well, one day the child was out in the backyard making mud pies....an activity that the child gets great enjoyment out of. The parents go to that child and tell the child to come inside as they are all getting ready to go to Disney World.

DumbFounded, the child protests that he doesn't want to go to Disney World as he doesn't want to leave his mud pies. "NO! I'm not DONE yet; I'm having FUN!" yells the boy.

The parents explain to him how much fun he will have at Disney World...and still upset about the prospect of leaving his mud pie making, he isn't buying it.

He isn't buying it because he has yet to experience the splendor of Disney World. He does not know how much fun he would have on the rides or seeing the characters, etc., etc., because he has not had contact with any of that great fun. All he knows is that making his mud pies are fun; they give him enjoyment; they make him happy and the thought of leaving what makes him happy, bothers him immensely.

I liken God's house and domain to be the same way for us Humans. We only know what we experience here on the earth....we know our comforts and our DisComforts. We know our likes and our DisLikes....we believe what we see in front of our eyes, not what is invisible to the physical realm of being.

So naturally, when we are introduced to the prospect that there may, in fact, be SomeThing Great OutSide of the lil world that we've built for OurSelves, we become threatened....and yes, it all has to do with fear, but not in the way that was presented.

It has to do with the feat that one might have actually been wrong all along....and if they were wrong about SomeThing so grand, what else might they have been missing?

No one wants to be called Fool.

"Wisdom Is A Woman UnderStanding Growth Processes!"
Raptor said:
quote:
"It requires a lot of work for some and are content with whatever floor they reach even thought there are many floors, above or below.

Others aren't even aware that there are, other floors, from the get go."

It is the job of science to keep looking for answers. It may not be an easy job, but it is their job non the less.
Whirling Moat:
quote:
"I agree that a individuals can live a morally upright life separate from a belief in God. My points were not about individuals but groups. There is something called group dynamic."
If groups who worship a non-existent God can behave morally, why shouldn't those who worship no God at all can behave morally as well?
quote:
"History is sufficient to prove my point. Large civilizations with wide dsparities in quality of life have always required a strong religious undertone to control the poor masses."
That sounds like an example of religion used for immoral purposes. I can think of lots of those; but I don't think you wanna open that can.
quote:
"since there is a codified norm for the religious community, when necessary it can be demonstrated that the community is off of the path. There can be a movement toward return to what is proper. The atheist does not have this at their disposal."
Most unsubstantiated ancient holy texts are written so vauge, that support can be found for any agenda one might have. Take Christianity for example:
Do you really think what is taught in churches of today is the same as what was taught 50 years ago? Take issues such as Homosexuality, Interracial marriage, racism, (the bible was used to justify slavery of our people ya know) weather or not the stories in the bible are fact or fictitious allegory stories designed to make a point, (Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, Tower of Babel, etc)
Religions change as well ya know
quote:
"What is right to an atheist is the same as what is acceptable in academic circles. Once the provisions have been laid for deviation from a former moral position the transition is easy."

Humm.... NO! Just because a person doesn't believe in God diesn't mean he is going to agree with what is acceptable in academic circles; gotta disagree with you on that one chief!

Shayabuther:
quote:
"So let me ask you a question: How do you suppose we got from NeAndErthal to our present state of being, besides the age old argument that we "adapt to our surroundings"?"
As I said before, we are taught everything our parents knew, and we add to it: that's what separates us from the monkeys! This allows each generation to advance in knowlege and ability.
quote:
""in order for the child to become "old enough and savvy enough" there must exist certain stimuli within their environment that will help that feral child mature." If a child's brain, mannerisms, behaviors, world view don't develop fully, how would they grow to be a mature adult who functions normally?"
I don't think your "feral child" analogy is an adaquate one because humans are taught by those who gave birth to us, not a pack of wolves. Our parents provide stimuli that allows us to mature.
quote:
"Again, you missed what I said. I never said that humans could not make it WithOut God. In fact, I said that society could function to a point WithOut God. HowEver, Man has already proven what will happen to Man, Animals, Plants and the Earth in general if we are left to our own devices."

Really! Okay 2 questions:
To what point do you believe humans are able to function without God, and what have we proven will happen to Man, Animals, Plants and the Earth in general when left to our own devices
quote:
"Ah, now I see where we DisAgree. I don't believe that we are pointing to AnyThing invisible to ReSpect that SomeThing in and OutSide of OurSelves may, in fact, have more answers than we do."

Are you suggesting your concept of God is detectable by all humans?
quote:
"If you will, consider this: Many of us did not PERSONALLY SEE our Great, Great, Great GrandParents...yet that doesn't make their existence and contributions to our lives any less significant. We KNOW that they existed because we bear witness to the existence of our GrandParents, our Parents and our very selves. We BELIEVE in and honor their legacies because we ReCognize and ReSpect the lessons that have been passed down to us, from them.

If we can do that with Our Own, who we know to have existed because we are here, how much more reverance should we give to the Creator, who Created and lived in those in which we came from?"
We have proof our parents came before us, and our grandparents came before them; we may not have known those 5 or 10 generations down the line, but reason tells us that everyone who came before us had someone who came before them.
I don't think you can compare the concept of our ancesters that is built upon fact, to the concept of God that is built upon faith.
quote:
"Actually, Kevin, that saying came from André Gide, a FrenchMan, an Atheist, pedophile and sexual abuser of young children...he was also bi-sexual, not homosexual, etc, etc, etc......."
Not quite sure what point you are tryin to make but I am sure you will agree; even the most evil man on earth is still capable of telling the truth.

Kevin

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