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quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
[QUOTE] It's called "life isn't fair"... Barwick... YOU should MOVE ON!

OBSTRUCTIONIST!


awww....

Yeah you don't sound like a liberal.. when it comes down to it, demonizing the opponent is the last tactic. Spew some more random beliefs and present them as "facts", then demonize them.

And I'll also give you a challenge. You find where I say we should get rid of affirmative action because blacks take away from whites. I dare ya.

Opposition to Affirmative Action is opposition to discrimination based on race, sex, color, creed, whatever. I've always had this stance, but somehow someone put words in my mouth and tried to say otherwise. Someone find for me where I said otherwise.

---------------------------------------
Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
quote:
And I'll also give you a challenge. You find where I say we should get rid of affirmative action because blacks take away from whites. I dare ya.
Dude...

What have you been smokin'???

Look on page two. I QUOTED >> CEREBRO << when I made the post that responded with a take that exposed the silliness in thinking that "affirmative action [makes] blacks take away from whites."

So what is your Little Man's Challenge all about??? Or Did you think I was talking to you?? ,,,,, READ TO COMPREHEND!!!! ,,,,
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by TheCerebro:

Racism seems to cut both ways.

A comment about affirmative action- is this not also a form of racism? White people are discriminated against through this and an arbitary standard is set up for addmissions. It does not judge people by "the content of their character" but their ethnicity. Plus, it hurts other minorities, like Asians, who now a smaller percent can get it according to quotas.

Recompase simply steals from one group and gives to another; the best way to create equality is to give no one anything and allow people to succeed on their own steam.


The intervenors studied the admissions decisions during the year plaintiff Jennifer Gratz applied. They found many white students with lesser qualifications than Gratz were admitted. Of the 2,661 admitted students with lower standardized test scores and grade point averages, some 1,243 were white and 725 were black.
How many times do we have to go over this??? There are no Black people taking or "stealing" anything from White people any more so than it is happening the other way or as quoted above that does not occur already - White-On-White.
Where's your answer for those findings??

And my aren't we righteous now! Our whole position is that centuries worth of advancement has been STOLEN. But that doesn't factor into your "equality" equation...

Tell the truth! You're not interested in equality. You're just here as an advocate for your group. JUSTICE and equality go hand-in-hand. One without the other is a sham... the most accurate description of your position!
Now what in the HELL are you talking about??? RIGHT-WING DING-DONG!!
Why is it that white people do not rail on the white students with lower scores that got in? Why do they never speak in dispariging terms against white women, the biggest beneficiaries of AA and it was not even intended for them? They(lots of whites)suffer from cognitive dissonance....no matter what anyone else does that is deemed bad....it will not be that way when it concerns whites.......
Copyright Tacoma News, Inc.

Whites - not racial minorities - benefit the most from the state's affirmative action program, according to a report to be released today by the state Commission on African American Affairs.

The report analyzed the role affirmative action played in state hiring in 1993 and 1994. Most of those hired through affirmative action were white - either women or those men who were physically disabled, Vietnam veterans or disabled veterans.

Furthermore, only 6.9 percent of the 3,011 workers hired by the state last year were appointed through the state's affirmative action effort. In 1993, about 9.9 percent of the state's hires were through affirmative action.

In examining the instances in which the state uses affirmative action, Kelly said, "The numbers are so small for minority groups, we don't understand how one can believe the program is at the detriment of whites."

Other parts of the study are showing whites are the primary beneficiaries of special admissions programs at state universities and programs designed to assist minority- and women-owned firms seeking business with the state.

"The theory that preferential treatment has been given to people of color in the state of Washington is a fallacy," said Judie Fortier, women's rights coordinator for the City of Tacoma. She also serves as a member of the Governor's Affirmative Action Advisory Committee, which monitors the state's affirmative action efforts.

"Why is it that white people do not rail on the white students with lower scores that got in? Why do they never speak in disparaging terms against white women, the biggest beneficiaries of AA and it was not even intended for them?"

Black conservatives, white anti-affirmative action advocates, republicans and all those who support Israel while degrading and bemoaning affirmative action, - Please step forward and answer Kevin41's very legitimate questions!
I am probably rare, in that I do NOT automatically think ANYBODY (regardless to color of skin, religion, etc) is automatically a "bad person".

Oh hell yeah racism is a problem. So is treating people badly for OTHER reasons not related to race, religion, etc. My experiences in my life were that people treated me differently because I have Asperger's Syndrome (or brain damage of similar symptoms)--I had (and may still have) difficulty getting along with ppl because of inability to recognize some things I do that might p*$$ people off without meaning to. I can't help it any more than a person can help being whatever color that they are. So even though I can't say I've been the victim of racism per se, I CAN put myself in the place of someone who is a victim of it because the root is the same: someone's treating you like a bad person FOR NO GOOD REASON. It's incomprehensible to me WHY a person would BE racist. It's just so stupid for someone to be that. Why can't people see how ridiculous it is?

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
Protest Warriors:
Don't look at your discussions with people at this board as a debate, think of it as a learning experience. If you look at it like a debate, you'll never go anywhere, as you'll be so diehard to win that you'll never change for the better.

African Americans:
Be more tactful, keep being patient, try as hard as possible to not make these people feel guilty, I know it sounds weird, but it will help. Don't debate, educate.
There is another problem with AA, slavery reparations and similar concepts. In law, you are not allowed to prosecute a person, so many years after a crime was commited (I'm blanking out on the legal term for this, someone help me.) We are by far past the point at which you could legally prosecute a person to make up for whatever wrwongs you feel have occured. It would be like me prosecuting the descendants of those who killed my distant ancestors. At this point, we live in a society more racialy equal, where you have to ability to legally pursue injustices, rather the seek political compensation.
TheCerebro:

With regard to reparations:
The term you are looking for is "statute of limitations." The convenience of your logic fails for murder, conspiracy to murder, complicity to murder, etc. There is no staute of limitations. Today's ability to pursue injustices is retroactive for murder and murder related violations. It applies to you as well.

There is really nothing to discuss about "AA and similar concepts." Affirmative Action is the law. It's a fact. It's as American as America. I'm not aware of any other "similar concepts."

We all understand that it hurts when race-based decisions are made against you. Tell us something we DON'T know.

Deal with it.

PEACE

Jim Chester

JWC
Hello TheCereBro, and everyone else,

"There is another problem with AA, slavery reparations and similar concepts. In law, you are not allowed to prosecute a person, so many years after a crime was commited (I'm blanking out on the legal term for this, someone help me.) We are by far past the point at which you could legally prosecute a person to make up for whatever wrwongs you feel have occured. It would be like me prosecuting the descendants of those who killed my distant ancestors. At this point, we live in a society more racially equal, where you have to ability to legally pursue injustices, rather the seek political compensation." by TheCereBro

The term that you are looking for is the "Statute of Limitations". There is no "Statute of Limitations" violation, as it relates to any violation of U.S. citizenship rights, as outlined in the "Bill of Rights" of the U.S. Constitution, the Supreme Law of the United States of America. Should any U.S. citizenship right be illegally and/or wrongfully violated by the U.S. government to illegally deny or disparage property rights or otherwise, as it relates to the persons, possessions, etc., of the truly law abiding U.S. citizens, should the time lapse to filing a claim for damages amount to one hundred years, the "Statute of Limitations" cannot be used as an excuse to disparage or deny damages for the wrongs of a U.S. government seriously gone awry.

This is one of many reasons, which sets the U.S. apart from any other nation in the world. The "Bill of Rights", as outlined in the U.S. Constitution, is the most powerful and useful document in the world in the interest of defending, protecting, and serving the persons, possessions, etc., of truly law abiding U.S. citizens.

Any claim or combination of claims filed for "Reparations for Wrongs of Slavery", denial of "Affirmative Action benefits", denial of "Welfare or AFDC" benefits, and/or claim filed to address "Racism", is not covered by the U.S. Constitution. Relating to the reality of it, it would be useless to call upon the "Statute of Limitations", and/or any other U.S. Constitutional premise to seek justification for redress as applied to AA, Reparations for Slavery, Welfare, Racism, Discrimination, etc.

Not a one of these categories falls within any denial of U.S. Constitutionally guaranteed citizenship rights, which are the only true "Civil Rights" as guaranteed and mandated by law to all law abiding U.S. citizens within the U.S., and any territory thereof.

Hats off, and a multitude of salutes, to all those who have risked it all so that each of us, who remain in the "land of the living" can enjoy yet one more 4th of July.

Happy 4th of July, Everyone!

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on July 04, 2003 at 12:22 PM.]
Lofton posted,
Any claim or combination of claims filed for "Reparations for Wrongs of Slavery", denial of "Affirmative Action benefits", denial of "Welfare or AFDC" benefits, and/or claim filed to address "Racism", is not covered by the U.S. Constitution. Relating to the reality of it, it would be useless to call upon the "Statute of Limitations", and/or any other U.S. Constitutional premise to seek justification for redress as applied to AA, Reparations for Slavery, Welfare, Racism, Discrimination, etc.

*** You are one funny guy Lofton.......you said the denial of affirmative action benefits.....well that white lady at UM got denied her "affirmative action benefits".....because AA does benefit white women.....look around........but she was allowed to take it all the way to the Supreme Court....so never say never in terms of what is useless......it is the mentality of a quitter, loser, lazy-azz low self-esteem fool that concedes to failure without trying to the end......just imagine if our ancestors had that mentality....you'd be picking cotton or sitting in the colored section still today.........and no one files for anything....you leverage influence utilizing your resources and force the issue...remember the montgomery bus boycott? That is small-scale compared to what is possible today......give it time..........you crack me up though....not only do you paint black people as sleaze, jack-leg and all that kie kie.....you now make black folks not capable of accomplishing anything they choose to pursue as in their best interest....and as so far as doing the right-wing white guy thing and trying to associate welfare and blacks......go and read some stats on that one......particularly the usage in those deep parts of the south where there are no blacks present....you'll be surprised......but man, you paint a really dismal picture and make me wonder what do black people do that is deemed adequate in YOUR eyes....is there anything at all?
Well Kevin41,

"*** You are one funny guy Lofton.......you said the denial of affirmative action benefits.....well that white lady at UM got denied her "affirmative action benefits".....because AA does benefit white women.....look around........but she was allowed to take it all the way to the Supreme Court....so never say never in terms of what is useless......it is the mentality of a quitter, loser, lazy-azz low self-esteem fool that concedes to failure without trying to the end......just imagine if our ancestors had that mentality....you'd be picking cotton or sitting in the colored section still today.........and no one files for anything....you leverage influence utilizing your resources and force the issue...remember the montgomery bus boycott? That is small-scale compared to what is possible today......give it time..........you crack me up though....not only do you paint black people as sleaze, jack-leg and all that kie kie.....you now make black folks not capable of accomplishing anything they choose to pursue as in their best interest....and as so far as doing the right-wing white guy thing and trying to associate welfare and blacks......go and read some stats on that one......particularly the usage in those deep parts of the south where there are no blacks present....you'll be surprised......but man, you paint a really dismal picture and make me wonder what do black people do that is deemed adequate in YOUR eyes....is there anything at all?" by Kevin41

I could care less as to what you think of me. It sure is amazing how, but yet not surprizing that one individual, in a Kevin41, would draw all the garbage as posted above, from the previous posting as posted by me.

Although as you state the Supreme Court ruled in favor of affirmative action, it won't be business as usual. In addition, nothing, absolutely nothing in the U.S. Constitution speaks to Affirmative Action. Given twenty years to come up with such a finding, it is a definite that the individuals or battery of individuals doing the research will not find one phrase or word in the U.S. Constitution that speaks to receiving Affirmative Action resources, collecting Social Welfare benefits, and/or receiving so much as one dime in reparations for the wrongs of slavery.

I'm definitely more of a winner than you'll ever be, because between the two of us, you are indeed the loser, so stop pitying yourself and get over it!

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on July 04, 2003 at 03:27 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by Lofton:

I'm definitely more of a winner than you'll ever be, because between the two of us, you are indeed the loser, so stop pitying yourself and get over it!



I'm the winner, because you're the loser. Roll Eyes

How can one argue with such airtight logic? LOL! Razz

"La vida te da sorpresas...
Sorpresas te da la vida...",
¡Ay, Dios!

Rubén Blades---Pedro Navaja


Plowshares Actions
The Nuclear Resister
School of the Americas Watch


Well Nmaginate,

"LOFTON...

Do you think your views count for anything here???"by Nmaginate

It is not important to me as to what others think as to my views or anyone elses viewpoint. What counts is not what any individual or set of individuals think, but where the truth lies.

Those Who Go Looking for Trouble Find Just What They Seek!

....And Usually What Goes Around Comes Around, Those Who Throw Any Boomerang Get Hit With the Same Boomerang Thrown. The intensity of the hit directly proportional to the force of the boomerang tossed!

So far, I have yet to have such a bad experience with anyone on the protestwarrior.com message board, because unlike a few individuals from africanamerican.org, to which I will refrain from mentioning any names, who take pride in spewing meaningless "Racist" garbage,

I have better things to do with my time than that.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on July 04, 2003 at 10:35 PM.]
As a white person who has been reading this board fairly regularly for about a year, there's something I'd like to say.

I have no idea what the solution is to the larger picture. MBM is right: America has never dealt with the racism it was founded on and the long term repercussions of slavery. Since I'm no political science whiz, I will leave the wrangling of that larger scale to others.

On a smaller level, I believe the only answer lies with the things I can control, namely my own conduct. Live the Golden Rule. Treat others with respect. Love them to the best of my ability, being mindful that we are all God's children. Raise our daughter with these values, live the example. Expect, demand if necessary, that my students demonstrate respect for the patients that come under their care, regardless of the color of their skin, their sex, their age, their disability or their disease.

I haven't posted in a long, long time because this is an African-American site and I believe a person learns more with their mouth shut. As my husband would say, that's why God gave you two ears, two eyes and only mouth. But I think this needed saying. More than that, it needs to be lived. By all people.

"Unless you're sharing what you have, you don't have as much as you think you do."
Lofton posted,

Although as you state the Supreme Court ruled in favor of affirmative action, it won't be business as usual. In addition, nothing, absolutely nothing in the U.S. Constitution speaks to Affirmative Action. Given twenty years to come up with such a finding, it is a definite that the individuals or battery of individuals doing the research will not find one phrase or word in the U.S. Constitution that speaks to receiving Affirmative Action resources, collecting Social Welfare benefits, and/or receiving so much as one dime in reparations for the wrongs of slavery.



* while you are touting the constitution, speak about the part that said all men are created equal while treating blacks as less of a person and even counting them as such for hundreds of years. There are plenty of words that elude to equality that were not followed. What do you think should be done in that case Lofton? If that were not followed and it was specifically written in the consitution what makes you think it would be necessary for a vote for reparations......you do not see anything about abortion in the constitution but there is policy developed in that area......your logic is flawed as usual..........
Come to Canada, y'all, since we never had the slavery up here and all that. Which, IMHO, makes a huuuuuuuge difference in how it impacts ppl's attitudes.

Hell, slaves escaped up here thru the "underground railroad". No Jim Crow bullcrap, and I've never heard tell of segregation or separate water fountains ANYWHERE in Canada at any time.

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
quote:
Originally posted by shebakoby:
Come to Canada, y'all, since we never had the slavery up here and all that. Which, IMHO, makes a huuuuuuuge difference in how it impacts ppl's attitudes.

Hell, slaves escaped up here thru the "underground railroad". No Jim Crow bullcrap, and I've never heard tell of segregation or separate water fountains ANYWHERE in Canada at any time.




I see that Shebakoby is not a historian. There was slavery in Canada, however, it became very unprofitable. The Canadian slaves were emancipated on August 1, 1834.
The best thing you can do if you make a statement is to back it up.
Check out these links about slavery in Canada:
Canadian slavery
Guelph Museum
[URL= http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:AmrJVrHZz-8J:collections.ic.gc.ca/magic/mt40.html+Slavery+in+Canada&hl=en&ie=UTF-8]Early black history in Canada[/URL]

"I am a child of God, a servant of Allah, a child of Shango, a child of Oshun, no matter what anyone does to me."
quote:
TheCerebro--Now is anyone going to actually answer my question, how will we end racism?


WE? There is no we. Racism is the volleyball of mental illness that rolls around in the court of white folk.

Therefore, when white folk wake up, recognize [i.e. which I doubt they ever shall] and realize that this mental derangement is all their doing [i.e. we are but simply the victims] then maybe 'we' will be closer to a 'real' solution.

It [racism] is truly a matter of misused power an judgement. The entity of "White Supremacy" is the engine that generates that power. The opposite [i.e. "Black Supremacy"] cannot exist at the same time. It's either one or the other.

Black mindset is dominant. Question is when 'we' blaq folks realize this will while folks run for the mountains again...?
quote:
Thank you for answering!

That's a pretty good definition of equality, but it does not supply the how. I seem to find society to be that way at present. Social class is largly defined by econmic standing, political office and education, all of which can be obtained by persons of any backround.

Why don't you make a suggestion.

What makes you think we do not already live in a equal society? (I assume that many of you believe this, or race would not be a political issue) How do we make it equal?
quote:
Originally posted by TheCerebro:
I have a question:

It seems that relations between whites and blacks is a importatnt topic on this forum, and all of you seem to agree they are not what they ought be. As a white person I would like to know both what needs to be done globally and done by me to reconcile the differences between the races, or in other words:

What is the final solution to racism?


BTW, I'm also from Protestwarrior.com.


First, lets make sure we have the same definition of racism, below is mine, what is yours


Definition

Racism: An Unspoken, legislated contract between rich white people and poor white people to steal, siphon and unequally share the wealth, labor and natural resources on sovereign lands of non-white people amongst themselves. This contract initiated and perpetuated by rich white people in hopes of maintaining statistical support for their wealth, adopted by poor white people in the struggle to survive, is necessary only to maintain the status quo of rich white people. The chosen basis of this contract is skin simply because it can be enacted via the most potent, primal and powerful of white and non-white people senses, the visual sense. Skin color also provides certain tactical advantages to the white power structure in that, potential allies and infiltrators are easily identified and supported or thwarted, accordingly. It also provides a powerful recruitment tool, which is the intrinsic sense of entitlement, felt by phenotypic whites openly initiated into the circle. The potency of the visual sense is easily apparent, as many phenotypic traits normally (statistically) associated with black skin, most commonly wider noses and nappy hair, have become marks of those to be subjected to negative treatment by all white institutions. This is why we straighten our hair and cut up our noses in order to reduce our blackness and hence the degree of abuse. The most fascinating aspect of this contract is the complexity of its propagation. Since it is a sight based system of thought it will be obviously based on a visual system of propagation ie multimedia. Just look at your local newspaper and television fo 1-2 hours per day and count the number of times the black face/body/community is associated with a negative connotations. The methods go on and on, but only those who have been unplugged can appreciate them. This constant manufacturing of consent is necessary in order to keep well-meaning whites, who are mostly poor and without security, engaged and in sanction of this abusive system.....
quote:
Originally posted by tmonster:
quote:
Originally posted by TheCerebro:
I have a question:

It seems that relations between whites and blacks is a importatnt topic on this forum, and all of you seem to agree they are not what they ought be. As a white person I would like to know both what needs to be done globally and done by me to reconcile the differences between the races, or in other words:

What is the final solution to racism?


BTW, I'm also from Protestwarrior.com.


First, lets make sure we have the same definition of racism, below is mine, what is yours


Definition

Racism: An Unspoken, legislated contract between rich white people and poor white people to steal, siphon and unequally share the wealth, labor and natural resources on sovereign lands of non-white people amongst themselves. This contract initiated and perpetuated by rich white people in hopes of maintaining statistical support for their wealth, adopted by poor white people in the struggle to survive, is necessary only to maintain the status quo of rich white people. The chosen basis of this contract is skin simply because it can be enacted via the most potent, primal and powerful of white and non-white people senses, the visual sense. Skin color also provides certain tactical advantages to the white power structure in that, potential allies and infiltrators are easily identified and supported or thwarted, accordingly. It also provides a powerful recruitment tool, which is the intrinsic sense of entitlement, felt by phenotypic whites openly initiated into the circle. The potency of the visual sense is easily apparent, as many phenotypic traits normally (statistically) associated with black skin, most commonly wider noses and nappy hair, have become marks of those to be subjected to negative treatment by all white institutions. This is why we straighten our hair and cut up our noses in order to reduce our blackness and hence the degree of abuse. The most fascinating aspect of this contract is the complexity of its propagation. Since it is a sight based system of thought it will be obviously based on a visual system of propagation ie multimedia. Just look at your local newspaper and television fo 1-2 hours per day and count the number of times the black face/body/community is associated with a negative connotations. The methods go on and on, but only those who have been unplugged can appreciate them. This constant manufacturing of consent is necessary in order to keep well-meaning whites, who are mostly poor and without security, engaged and in sanction of this abusive system.....



ok the definition was on point; was the/your 'answer' inherent within the definition? That since, the sense of'skin' as a visual determinant creates/maintains and subjugates the black to the white, rascism white supremacy is/will be a constant.
quote:
Originally posted by TheCerebro:
I have a question:

It seems that relations between whites and blacks is a importatnt topic on this forum, and all of you seem to agree they are not what they ought be. As a white person I would like to know both what needs to be done globally and done by me to reconcile the differences between the races, or in other words:

What is the final solution to racism?


BTW, I'm also from Protestwarrior.com.



Here is what absolutely infuriates me about white people: Because racism doesn't affect them or because they're ignorant/naive about the problem, they insist to you that racism does not exist ... at any rate, since the subject makes them uncomfortable, we're not going to talk about it, and so not talking about it means there's nothing to talk about - See? I'm not a racist! I don't talk about it! Abracadabra... racism doesn't exist bang Roll Eyes

This sh*t absolutely makes my blood boil...

And then they want to believe that they're 'open-minded' innocent citizens of the world... white folk can be frickin unbelievable.... How can people so ignorant....
quote:
Originally posted by nayo:
quote:
Originally posted by tmonster:
quote:
Originally posted by TheCerebro:
I have a question:

It seems that relations between whites and blacks is a importatnt topic on this forum, and all of you seem to agree they are not what they ought be. As a white person I would like to know both what needs to be done globally and done by me to reconcile the differences between the races, or in other words:

What is the final solution to racism?


BTW, I'm also from Protestwarrior.com.


First, lets make sure we have the same definition of racism, below is mine, what is yours


Definition

Racism: An Unspoken, legislated contract between rich white people and poor white people to steal, siphon and unequally share the wealth, labor and natural resources on sovereign lands of non-white people amongst themselves. This contract initiated and perpetuated by rich white people in hopes of maintaining statistical support for their wealth, adopted by poor white people in the struggle to survive, is necessary only to maintain the status quo of rich white people. The chosen basis of this contract is skin simply because it can be enacted via the most potent, primal and powerful of white and non-white people senses, the visual sense. Skin color also provides certain tactical advantages to the white power structure in that, potential allies and infiltrators are easily identified and supported or thwarted, accordingly. It also provides a powerful recruitment tool, which is the intrinsic sense of entitlement, felt by phenotypic whites openly initiated into the circle. The potency of the visual sense is easily apparent, as many phenotypic traits normally (statistically) associated with black skin, most commonly wider noses and nappy hair, have become marks of those to be subjected to negative treatment by all white institutions. This is why we straighten our hair and cut up our noses in order to reduce our blackness and hence the degree of abuse. The most fascinating aspect of this contract is the complexity of its propagation. Since it is a sight based system of thought it will be obviously based on a visual system of propagation ie multimedia. Just look at your local newspaper and television fo 1-2 hours per day and count the number of times the black face/body/community is associated with a negative connotations. The methods go on and on, but only those who have been unplugged can appreciate them. This constant manufacturing of consent is necessary in order to keep well-meaning whites, who are mostly poor and without security, engaged and in sanction of this abusive system.....



ok the definition was on point; was the/your 'answer' inherent within the definition? That since, the sense of'skin' as a visual determinant creates/maintains and subjugates the black to the white, rascism white supremacy is/will be a constant.


Yes my answer is in the definition if you want to see it. and no racism and white supremacy is a new phenomenon in human social evolution and will not always be with us, ie remove the economic incentive and basic human xenophobia will lose out to human intellectuality.

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