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I have a question:

It seems that relations between whites and blacks is a importatnt topic on this forum, and all of you seem to agree they are not what they ought be. As a white person I would like to know both what needs to be done globally and done by me to reconcile the differences between the races, or in other words:

What is the final solution to racism?


BTW, I'm also from Protestwarrior.com.
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Welcome TheCerebro,

You pose a question that is surely going to have you getting a host of replies from the various members of our small community. From my perspective its going to take an acknowledgement not only that racism exists but is openly practiced and encouraged by some business and political sectors of this country.

For instance why is it still a practice to charge blacks higher insurance rates, higher mortagage rates and higher loan rates for cars. This despite the supposely best effort of the government to discourage those types of things. Clearly racism is still practiced and one could say unofficially supported in that those practices are still on-going.

For you as an individual, well I have always believed that you treated each individual as an individual with respect the same way you would be expect to be treated and not as the sole representative of an entire race of people. Assholes come in all colors and shapes.
THECEREBRO,

TO ALL CAUCASIANS I SAY, BE HUMANISTS! THINK OF PEOPLE OF OTHER RACES AND PLACES! BE CONSIDERATE AND KIND TO ALL HUMAN BEINGS NOT JUST YOUR OWN. STOP DESTROYING LIFE WHEREVER YOU GO AND EXPLOITING AND TERRORIZE EVERY ORGANISM IN THIS PLANET.
DESTROY THE PSYCHOLOGY OF RACISM, SEXISM AND AGGRESSION TYPICAL OF YOUR WESTERN MINDS. BECOME MORE IN SYNC WITH GOD BECAUSE. GOD LOVES ALL HUMANITY! SO DON'T PULL BLACKS DOWN, BY DOING THAT YOU PULL GOD DOWN!
STOP DESTROYING THE AMBITION OF BLACKS MEN, WE ARE CHILDREN OF GOD TOO, SO ALSO YOUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS, YOUR COMPANIONS, YOUR EQUALS! YOU ARE NOT GOD, YOUR ARE NOT OUR SOVEREIGN MASTERS. YOU ARE ONLY HUMANS, SO BEHAVE LIKE HUMANS REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD!..NOT SIMPLY EGOISTS, INSENSITIVE AND CARNAL BEASTS. STRIVE TO GAIN KINDNESS, RIGHTEOUSNESS, WISDOM AND SPIRITUALITY. ONLY THEN OUR DISCONTEMENT AND YOUR SYSTEMIZED AND ORGANIZED RACISM WILL STOP AND PEACE WILL PREVAIL ALL OVER THE WORLD !!


AFROMAN.

[This message was edited by Afroman on July 01, 2003 at 07:42 AM.]
TheCerebro:

Your question:

As a white person I would like to know both what needs to be done globally and done by me to reconcile the differences between the races, or in other words:

What is the final solution to racism?


I cannot personally begin to suggest an answer for global racism. What is global racism? Is Israelis hating Palestinians; Serbs and Whoever; Irish and English; Spaniards and those folks in the Basques;, etc? I couldn't begin to know.

I, similarly, could not begin to know what you can do for racism in our country --- assuming you are American. And maybe that is where there is the problem. You identify yourself as "white." What does being "white" have to do with racism, "globally?" Really!!

As Americans, I don't know what drives you personally. Maybe you can start with what you see as "racism." You should understand that America is, like it or not, constructed on racism.

The "Golden Rule" works for most people. Once you get beyond that, it gets very complicated.

My name is Jim. What's yours?

PEACE

Jim Chester

JWC
I think the only way to combat racism is to actually be honest with our racisms - blacks and whites included. Don't pretend everything is all peachy-keen in the sphere of racial politics, don't act all shocked when racial conflagrations (such as the L.A. riots and the O.J. verdict) belies whatever racial utopia most people imagine for this country.

I'm not leaving myself out. I myself have become frustrated with whites to the point that it borders on racism. Am I proud of it, no. But I'm perfectly happy with being honest and trying to engage in constructive dialoge in order to get beyond the racial bind.
You know I was just browsing over at your site, TheCerebro, protestwarrior.com. I just looked through your files and some of your boards. You all are very, very hateful. You hate people based on their ideology (liberals), you hate based on sexual orientation (gays), and in addition to that your site condones the disruption of other sites who do not share your ideology.
Here's a quote from Alan on your The Enemy board.
"SHEBAKOBY is our WARRIOR OF THE WEEK for carrying out a successful Hunt and Destroy operation, Code Name SHEBA. She did reconnaissance, found a leftist site frantically trying to explain ProtestWarrior, and then blew them out of the water."

SO this black person has a question for you, why are you bothering a peaceful board with your agitation tactics?
Just a short story for you from famed story teller Aesop to put this in perspective for you

A Gnat flew over the meadow with much buzzing for so small a creature and settled on the tip of one of the horns of a Bull. After he had rested a short time, he made ready to fly away. But before he left he begged the Bull's pardon for having used his horn as a resting place.
"You must be glad to have me go now," he said.
"It's all the same to me," replied the Bull. "I didn't even know you were there."


The moral: We are often of greater importance in our own eyes than in the eyes of our neighbor.
The smaller the mind the greater the conceit.

God Bless!

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965
quote:
Originally posted by Yssys:
You know I was just browsing over at your site, TheCerebro, protestwarrior.com. I just looked through your files and some of your boards. You all are very, very hateful. You hate people based on their ideology (liberals), you hate based on sexual orientation (gays), and in addition to that your site condones the disruption of other sites who do not share your ideology.
Here's a quote from Alan on your http://www.protestwarrior.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=863 board.
"SHEBAKOBY is our WARRIOR OF THE WEEK for carrying out a successful Hunt and Destroy operation, Code Name SHEBA. She did reconnaissance, found a leftist site frantically trying to explain ProtestWarrior, and then blew them out of the water."

SO this black person has a question for you, why are you bothering a peaceful board with your agitation tactics?
Just a short story for you from famed story teller Aesop to put this in perspective for you

_A Gnat flew over the meadow with much buzzing for so small a creature and settled on the tip of one of the horns of a Bull. After he had rested a short time, he made ready to fly away. But before he left he begged the Bull's pardon for having used his horn as a resting place.
"You must be glad to have me go now," he said.
"It's all the same to me," replied the Bull. "I didn't even know you were there."_

_The moral: We are often of greater importance in our own eyes than in the eyes of our neighbor.
The smaller the mind the greater the conceit._
God Bless!

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965


I'm confused. You just said we were evil for discriminating based on ideology. We discriminate against such groups because of our own ideology, which you just discriminated against; therefore you are guilty of the thing you accuse us of.

We do not hate liberal or gays, but disagree and find their actions to be both incorrect and mislead. You hovever have just shown hate to a person you do not know, simply because of the digital area he comes from. Think of it as digital racism.

Now, going back to the main question, I think that the life insurance rates are higher for blacks since blacks have a lower lifespan (sadly) and the rates are simply that way because of statistics. It's the same reason teenagers have very high car insurance rates or that seniors have high health insurance race.

Thankfully, there are laws against institutionalized racism, and if you consider an organization to be engaging in this, I reccomend you file a lawsuite. However, I personally have seen very little of this, but maybe you could point it out to me.

Now, if the golden rule is all that is needed, why should race be a factor? Why not be colorblind? It seems to me that you are either colorblind, or a criminal.

Yet, one of the members of your forum has told me, claiming to be color blind is really a coverup for racism. Perhaps you could explain this to me.

I hope the above has not been interpreted as "agitation tactics", because it is not intended to be anything but the pursuit of truth.

God Bless
quote:
Originally posted by TheCerebro:
I have a question:

It seems that relations between whites and blacks is a importatnt topic on this forum...


Is that really your impression? I've been on this site for almost a year now, and relations with whites seems to be a pretty under-emphasized topic. I've seen more posts about Joe Millionaire than I have about cross-racial understanding.

Now that a lot of people from Protestwarrior have come here, you see a lot of talk about whites and about race relations. Most of those discussions probably were begun by the protestwarrior members.

While I won't label you all as hateful, I will label most of you as being unjustifiably arrogant, and you tend to project your sense of self-importance on us, believing for no reason that we're so concerned about white people.
Yssys,

I guess they have to really convince themselves over there that someone is taking that racist BS of theirs to heart...puleeze....you see they came over here with that nonsense and no one went lookig for them or tried to join their band of dime-brand bigots (except Lofton, which is expected). Whites are facing challenges here and abroad that were not present 40 years ago.....I guess the way they talk is indicative of two things a)the racial hate bred into them by their evil ancestors and b) apprehension of a "new world order" that does not place them on the top rung of the ladder exclusively. I laugh more than anything else....and to think i used to find them midly irritating years ago....now I just see it as expected behavior.....
quote:
Originally posted by ItAintEazy:
Don't pretend everything is all peachy-keen in the sphere of racial politics, don't act all shocked when racial conflagrations (such as the L.A. riots and the O.J. verdict) belies whatever racial utopia most people imagine for this country.



The L.A. Riots.. A black guy runs from police officers.. why was he running? He was to be arrested for committing a crime, yet he's portrayed as a hero and a great guy who didn't deserve to be punished.

What a hero this guy is..
Spouse abuse - 1999
3 Counts of PCP influence
Indecent Exposure - 2001
Recently, Rodney crashes SUV going 100 mph..
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,84218,00.html

This guy is a saint.

So the cops catch the guy and beat the snot out of him. It must have been because they were racist. I've got news for you, that happens all the time to white people too when they are STUPID AND RUN FROM THE DAMN COPS.

Then comes Amadou Diallo.. FOUR cops shot their weapons at once, not just one, leading me to believe they thought they were in danger.

Large groups of cops don't just beat people because they're black, and they don't just shoot them for the same reason. I've got a friend who's a former officer and I've gotten a pretty good perspective on what happens in police work. It's not pretty, people get beat up, cops get broken bones, and some get killed because from what I can tell, they're afraid that if they attack the guy who's obviously threatening their lives, they'll be considered racist.

---------------------------------------
Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
quote:
Originally posted by Yssys:
You all are very, very hateful. You hate people based on their ideology (liberals), you hate based on sexual orientation (gays)...


So if I go to a swinger couple and say "What you're doing is wrong", do I hate them?

If I go to a prostitute and say "It's not right to sell yourself for sex", does that mean I hate her?

But as soon as I say to a homosexual "What you're doing is wrong", then I'm a hatemongering homophobic prejudiced idiot.

---------------------------------------
Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
There are a couple of points to respond to you with. First, who cares what you think? Second, keep your opinions to your self. If you disagree with something, fine. Govern your personal behavior accordingly. Leave others to do the same. Third, if you must burden others with your thoughts, go find a place with like-minded people. This would not be such a place.
OH PLEASSSE! Amadou Diallo got shot at 41 times for pulling out his wallet. If four police officers cannot tell the difference between a wallet and a gun they need to be in jail for being blind and stupid. Did I mention 41 times they shot at this guy. All you did was provide a perfect example of why black people distrust white cops.
Barwick...

I wonder why you didn't say that you would go up to a Black person - Mano y Mano - and tell him/her how wrong he/she is and they are asking for hand-outs... and everything else you have said or implied.

I wonder why???

(And I actually doubt you are that bold to go up to someone in person, alone, and confront them with your Holier-Than-Thou view of life..... No I think you value your teeth more than that!)
Barwick is just a little dumb young racist who will try to justify anything that white racists do.....he needs to read more....for instance barwick....go retreive literature that indicates how white racist groups like to recruit from law enforcement and military groups....based on their knowledge of and access to weapons.....so with r. king....i know white cops were not that damn scared....then maybe they were....many are cowards who hide behind badges and a gun. It still was not justified....by no means. I never knew that SOME whites needed the kind of education they do on the social landscape in this country.......maybe they just need help identifying how acutely delusional their viewpoints really are..........
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Barwick...

I wonder why you didn't say that you would go up to a Black person - Mano y Mano - and tell him/her how wrong he/she is and they are asking for hand-outs... and everything else you have said or implied.

I wonder why???

(And I actually doubt you are that bold to go up to someone in person, alone, and confront them with your Holier-Than-Thou view of life..... No I think you value your teeth more than that!)


Um, I have. On a regular basis.

---------------------------------------
Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
Barwick is just a little dumb young racist who ...


Ok Kevin, I do tire of you and your typical playing-the-race-card excuse and calling me a racist. SO, do me a favor. Go through this entire forum and show me what I've said SPECIFICALLY that makes me a racist, because you're obviously basing your decision on fact and not on sensationalist "GET THE RACIST BASTARD" motives.

---------------------------------------
Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
I think I have gotton more accusations here about being hateful then I have in my whole life. All I did was ask a question and suddenly I am a bigotted, hateful, evil, scum of the earth racist.

Simply because I hold certain conservative views does not mean I hate people, it means I disagree with them.

First to Vox, when I came on the forum all the topics at the top were on, common responses by whites to racism, why colorblind doesn't mean you are not racist, and the like. Maybe it's just a phase your forum is going through, but yes it is the impression I got.

Now is anyone going to actually answer my question, how will we end racism? Every response I have gotton is HATE for being me being white, conservative and different. You don't know me, except for 3 posts on a message board.

If there is racism on this forum it isn't me, it's the people who see the word 'white' and immediately respond with hate.

So, anyone wanna answer the question, or are you not done accusing?
quote:
Originally posted by TheCerebro:

Now is anyone going to actually answer my question, how will we end racism?


Racism will end when an equilibrium between the races is established. This occurs when two things happen: when those wronged feel that they have been adequately recompensed in whatever way that is meaningful to them, and when those that have subjugated others, no longer do so. When every person has an equal opportunity to make the absolute most of their skills and abilities, devoid of any societal "drag", then racism will have been dissolved.



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by TheCerebro:

Now is anyone going to actually answer my question, how will we end racism?


Racism will end when an equilibrium between the races is established. This occurs when two things happen: when those wronged feel that they have been adequately recompensed in whatever way that is meaningful to them, and when those that have subjugated others, no longer do so. When every person has an equal opportunity to make the absolute most of their skills and abilities, devoid of any societal "drag", then racism will have been dissolved.



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.



Thank you for answering!

That's a pretty good definition of equality, but it does not supply the how. I seem to find society to be that way at present. Social class is largly defined by econmic standing, political office and education, all of which can be obtained by persons of any backround.

What makes you think we do not already live in a equal society? (I assume that many of you believe this, or race would not be a political issue) How do we make it equal?
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by TheCerebro:

Now is anyone going to actually answer my question, how will we end racism?


Racism will end when an equilibrium between the races is established. This occurs when two things happen: when those wronged feel that they have been adequately recompensed in whatever way that is meaningful to them, and when those that have subjugated others, no longer do so. When every person has an equal opportunity to make the absolute most of their skills and abilities, devoid of any societal "drag", then racism will have been dissolved.



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.



MBM, you're right. But the problem is, some of those who have been wronged will ALWAYS feel like they are entitled to something else.

---------------------------------------
Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
quote:
Originally posted by TheCerebro:

That's a pretty good definition of equality, but it does not supply the _how_.


First there needs to be a real commitment throughout society to end it. Once everyone comes to the understanding that discriminating against anyone is wrong, then measures to create the "equilibrium" can take root.

Even before that, though, it takes the common person to speak out against it. Those that see racism and discrimination, but ignore it, are participating in it as well, albeit perhaps at a different level.

quote:
What makes you think we do not already live in a equal society?


I have lived all of my 41 years both in this country and as an African American male.

I see. I hear. I feel.

Let me say the following with all due respect and sensitivity to you: just because you are not the subject of racism does not mean that it does not exist. Most whites never even think about race until someone of another race brings it up. They act and live life without a thought about the impact of their actions and words on others. When people push whites to be more attuned to this, many push back claiming reverse racism, or political correctness, or whatever. Instead of being so defensive, why not just listen for a minute? Perhaps there are some perspectives that you might find enlightening about how others perceive things that may be wholly different from yours based upon a wholly different life experience. Does that make sense?

quote:
How do we make it equal?


Recompense - programs like AA and other laws and programs to eliminate discrimination are a start. A thoughtful consideration of reparations, I believe is another. Millions of slave descendants suffer significant economic harm as a result of suffering through the government sanctioned institution. Make them whole vis-a-vis the investment they made in this country. That will go a long way toward demonstrating this country's commitment toward leveling the playing field.

Discriminating - just stop doing it. Be conscious of your actions and the impact of what you do and say on others. Start believing in the inherent equality of all people. Live by the Golden Rule!



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.


[This message was edited by MBM on July 01, 2003 at 03:26 PM.]
I answered your question. Apparently, you don't want to acknowledge it. I'll answer it again.

Racism will end when decisionmaking, institutionally and personally, is made under the unbrella of The Golden Rule, i.e. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Don't you think that would work? If not, what is your answer?

PEACE

Jim Chester

JWC
quote:
Originally posted by Barwick:

But the problem is, some of those who have been wronged will ALWAYS feel like they are entitled to something else.



Listen, when has America dealt with its race problem?

This country was founded on racism and inequality. It was codified in the Constitution of this country where I was considered 3/5 of a human being. American society was founded on the racist and classist distinctions that, frankly, still exist today.

If you disagree about this ask yourself when did America solve its race problems? In the 1860s? 1900s? 1940s? 1960s? 1970s? 1980s? When? Seriously. How?

America has NEVER dealt with the issue of race. She tries to essentially ignore it, hoping that black folks just forget about it and everything just works itself out. Can an alcoholic do that? Can a drug addict? Can anyone with a serious problem just ignore the problem and hope that it just goes away of its own volition? That is the very definition of denial - and America is great at it.

I said this, sort of, tongue in cheek a long time ago, but America needs to go through a 12 Step Program regarding race. It needs to first admit that it is racist, embrace that characterization, then commit itself to eradicating all vestiges of that. Until something like that happens - we'll always have problems to varying degrees.



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.
Barwick posted,
Ok Kevin, I do tire of you and your typical playing-the-race-card excuse and calling me a racist. SO, do me a favor. Go through this entire forum and show me what I've said SPECIFICALLY that makes me a racist, because you're obviously basing your decision on fact and not on sensationalist "GET THE RACIST BASTARD" motives.



Barwick,

you really don't get it fella.......you do not have to say anything specifically to be a damn inbred acting racist. the whole concept of you coming in here and telling black people how they should think about their own situation is some racist, supremacist bullshiit. You have people in here that are 20+ years older than you who have also experienced some of the things that we talk about. And for you to sit in here and say shiit like cops do not shoot people because they are black....or whites get treated the same way rodney king did for running from the cops.......find a single instance where an unarmed white guy gets shot 41 times or gets a billyclub stuck up his azzz...justbecause.


See fella, racism comes in many forms...it does not have to be overt and spoken....it can be via policy, practices and even behaviors based on preconcieved notions. Do you thnk the only racists are those who shout the n-word? I know you are not that damn nieve. For you to come in here much younger and less educated than allot of people in here and argue with them about what the hell their social reality is in this racist azz country....is racist in itself.....because you are basically disavowing the lives and cognitive processes of people who have a wider set of life's experiences, understand history and policy waay beyond your grasp of it....yet you're only 22...and white, so what could be your basis for thinking you are qualified to do so with black people? It is like me telling a older woman with many children what the hell labor pain was like before modern medicene. I am not a woman, cannot have children and was not around in those days....so the only thing that qualifies me is my silly azz internal notions that I am more qualified than that woman to talk about women's issues....and if i'm not formally or informally educated on that topic to a greater extent than she is....i have no basis for disavowing what she states is reality......

But if I actually wanted to, i could pick out bits and pieces of your posts across other threads and show you the racist tone in your speech.

For example;

So the cops catch the guy and beat the snot out of him. It must have been because they were racist. I've got news for you, that happens all the time to white people too when they are STUPID AND RUN FROM THE DAMN COPS.
(okay, so police brutality on the basis of race is unfounded)


2.So you want to give a handout to blacks, because why? Affirmative Action has been around since Kennedy, and it hasn't made much change in recent years. Would you like to teach blacks and other minorities that they're always going to get something easy because they're a minority?
(So do blacks get given their degrees based on AA and did you address the increased graduation rates? so i guess blacks were not fighting for equality but an advantage)

It serves no benefit for a true business owner to reject a perfectly qualified African American man or woman. It only hurts him. 99.9% of all business owners I know would not do that. 99% of all business owners I know see the stupid racial tension going on in this country and realize that if people don't start accepting eachother as human beings and not as this race or that race, that this country is going to be fighting a literal race war in the near future.
(Read about the Labor Dept testers clinton sent out where equally qualified blacks were turned down disproportionately. read about linguistic profiling where blacks are dicriminated aganist based on accent, zipcode and many other criteria....even when credit, education and assets are superior)

So barwick,

The whole concept is denying someone's reality when you have not been in their shoes is really racist in itself....because you are really deeming yourself superior to tell someone what they experience is not what they think it is.
3.
For what it's worth (which I would say, "not much," because there are more important issues), America is a fractured society because we all reject one important thing that is necessary for unity and continued progress: "American" remains a nationality only, and not an ethnicity. Countries today that are not racist toward its own citizens are countries who see all citizens as "their people." In England, there were several different ethnicities and tribes, including Vikings, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Norman Frenchmen, and the indigenous Celtic people who, over time, have come to assimilate and become one people: the British. Ditto the Germans and French. In this hemisphere, the same thing goes for many of the Latino nationalities. Until Americans begin to assimilate into one another, creating a new ethnicity that sees itself as one, forget about "ending racism." The new ethnicity would be unique to the point where a person can tell you're American just from looking at your "uniquely American" facial features.

This dream is so unrealistic that it's actually undesirable to most people, black and white alike. But it is the best answer to the "race relations" question.
quote:
Originally posted by Norland:
Why do WE bother trying to EXPLAIN anything to these Caucasian males? It's a waste of time!! MBM you need an IGNORE button that some of us could activate. These people rule the world with MOAB's in their pockets. They're a psychotic, scary, hairy group of gang-banging, killing "humanity".


Racism seems to cut both ways.

A comment about affirmative action- is this not also a form of racism? White people are discriminated against through this and an arbitary standard is set up for addmissions. It does not judge people by "the content of their character" but their ethnicity. Plus, it hurts other minorities, like Asians, who now a smaller percent can get it according to quotas.

Rcompase simply steals from one group and gives to another; the best way to create equality is to give no one anything and allow people to suceed on their own steam.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Barwick:

But the problem is, some of those who have been wronged will ALWAYS feel like they are entitled to something else.



Listen, when has America dealt with its race problem?

This country was founded on racism and inequality. It was codified in the Constitution of this country where I was considered 3/5 of a human being. American society was founded on the racist and classist distinctions that, frankly, still exist today.

If you disagree about this ask yourself when did America solve its race problems? In the 1860s? 1900s? 1940s? 1960s? 1970s? 1980s? When? Seriously. How?

_America has NEVER dealt with the issue of race. _ She tries to essentially ignore it, hoping that black folks just forget about it and everything just works itself out. Can an alcoholic do that? Can a drug addict? Can anyone with a serious problem just ignore the problem and hope that it just goes away of its own volition? That is the very definition of denial - and America is great at it.

I said this, sort of, tongue in cheek a long time ago, but America needs to go through a 12 Step Program regarding race. It needs to first admit that it is racist, embrace that characterization, then commit itself to eradicating all vestiges of that. Until something like that happens - we'll always have problems to varying degrees.



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.



I guess we just see it differently. I don't think the solution is through programs like AA, as we've seen it causes resentment among those who aren't from underrepresented minorities (which includes Asians as "enough" represented). If reparations were to be made, they should have been paid back to the original slaves as they were released. It is next to impossible to accurately "pay back" people for something that was done 150 years ago, and included everything from taking them from their country of origin into a brand new world, to lynching them for the way they were born. How do you pay someone back for that? Money can't do it. Many African Americans practice the Christian faith, I know, I go to a church that is 98% African American, a couple thousand people attend each of the two services every sunday. In light of that, maybe (like every other ethnic group has done) it would benefit African Americans and the whole country if we all practiced something called "Forgiveness". Myself and my ancestors have forgiven those who oppressed us.

Forgiveness - for-give-ness - Giving up hope for a better past.

Justice would be great. But the time for punishing those responsible has come and gone with the death of the last generation of slave owners who slaughtered and mistreated their slaves.

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
For what it's worth (which I would say, "not much," because there are more important issues), America is a fractured society because we all reject one important thing that is necessary for unity and continued progress: "American" remains a nationality only, and not an ethnicity. Countries today that are not racist toward its own citizens are countries who see all citizens as "their people." In England, there were several different ethnicities and tribes, including Vikings, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Norman Frenchmen, and the indigenous Celtic people who, over time, have come to assimilate and become one people: the British. Ditto the Germans and French. In this hemisphere, the same thing goes for many of the Latino nationalities. Until Americans begin to assimilate into one another, creating a new ethnicity that sees itself as one, forget about "ending racism." The new ethnicity would be unique to the point where a person can tell you're American just from looking at your "uniquely American" facial features.

This dream is so unrealistic that it's actually undesirable to most people, black and white alike. But it is the best answer to the "race relations" question.



Thank GOD.. that's what I've been trying to say all along. Maybe since someone from this board said it, people will listen.

---------------------------------------
Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
barwick posted,

If reparations were to be made, they should have been paid back to the original slaves as they were released. It is next to impossible to accurately "pay back" people for something that was done 150 years ago, and included everything from taking them from their country of origin into a brand new world, to lynching them for the way they were born.



* You never addressed the wealth inequities that were passed down over generations or businesses that existed then and now off of slave labor generated revenue. Are blacks supposed to just let that be "on the house" when whites keep being born into that wealth generation after generation? I do not think so.......but it is easy for whites to say what should be left along when they are in a position of relative advantage.......and blacks have to form their own opinions about what is right and not leave it to whites......because whites think that affirmative action has run its course in 30 years.....for over 300 years of inequities....and in the process, let white women help keep that in white households....and i always wondered barwick.....why is it that whites argue affirmative action as racism....but never speak in terms of white women benefitting from something that was created specifically to address racism and exclusion BLACKS faced?......personally, I think dialogue with 95% of whites is fruitless...because they will always slant the issues from their perspective....which maintains white advantage........black people have to empower themselves and FORCE changes we desire, because it will never happen voluntarily....ever noticed that any rights blacks gained in the last 40 years had to be legislated? doesn't that tell you anything?
Yes, I'VE SAID THIS ALREADY, every single person in this country was oppressed at some point, same with their ancestors, and if they weren't they'd be more wealthy at this point. It's called "life isn't fair". It sucks. It's a sucky answer, and I wish it was otherwise, but it's not. There is ABSOLUTELY no way that we'll be able to accurately repay anybody involved in slavery or past discrimination of any race, eventually some people will think they were paid too little, and those doing the paying will think they paid too much. Then what do you do? It's not going to solve anything. It's called move on, and yes, I'm a racist horrible person because of it, but it's called "forget about it".

---------------------------------------
Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
quote:
Originally posted by TheCerebro:

Racism seems to cut both ways.

A comment about affirmative action- is this not also a form of racism? White people are discriminated against through this and an arbitary standard is set up for addmissions. It does not judge people by "the content of their character" but their ethnicity. Plus, it hurts other minorities, like Asians, who now a smaller percent can get it according to quotas.

Recompase simply steals from one group and gives to another; the best way to create equality is to give no one anything and allow people to succeed on their own steam.
The intervenors studied the admissions decisions during the year plaintiff Jennifer Gratz applied. They found many white students with lesser qualifications than Gratz were admitted. Of the 2,661 admitted students with lower standardized test scores and grade point averages, some 1,243 were white and 725 were black.
    How many times do we have to go over this??? There are no Black people taking or "stealing" anything from White people any more so than it is happening the other way or as quoted above that does not occur already - White-On-White.
Where's your answer for those findings??

And my aren't we righteous now! Our whole position is that centuries worth of advancement has been STOLEN. But that doesn't factor into your "equality" equation...

Tell the truth! You're not interested in equality. You're just here as an advocate for your group. JUSTICE and equality go hand-in-hand. One without the other is a sham... the most accurate description of your position!
quote:
It's called "life isn't fair"...
Well, when it comes to AA and the forthcoming REPARATIONS and the perceived "wrongness" Whites have towards it... just take your own advice/words to heart!
    Life for YOU, my dear White friend, won't be fair in that respect. And, instead of worrying what it will do... JUST MOVE ON!... and leave your petty, unjustifiable concerns about Black people in the past. Big Grin
Barwick... YOU should MOVE ON!

OBSTRUCTIONIST!
Can you come up with more than 5 examples of where it might be percieved that a black person allegedly took something due to Affirmative action?
Bottom line: Jennifer Gratz does not own that spot at U of M. It was not her God given right to be admitted. My question is why she felt that she was entitled to be admitted.
Any person who has ever gone through the admissions process knows that you are not always going to get into the school that you may want to. She didn't even have a back up plan or school to attend.She just totally dropped out. Why should U of M have to pay for her PPP (Piss Poor Planning)?

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965
Notice the silence on the Gratz issue...

It would not be a reach to figure that the same thing happens ALL over the nation but... just like slavery (as it became a racial institution) it is BLACK SKIN that gets the attention. It is BLACK SKIN that gets singled out.

(You all do know that was/is part of the historical rationale for why Black Africans were singled out to be chattel slaves... right?? Yes... both Whites and Blacks were indentured servants, together. But when it came time to make the institution of slavery "workable" BLACK Africans where singled out because they could escape the stark distinction in a nation of pale-faced people that their dark, BLACK skin made.)
Cerebro call me what you want. We need an encyclopedia for all the derogatory terminology you have for us now!! I find it haaarrrddddd to find love for a group of people whose solution to other people's perceived problems, is to shred them into spaghetti. I was born with ya, grew up with you, went to school with you, have one of you calling me a term of endearment, still live amongst the majority of you. You were shredding folks when I was born. There's no end to your group's madness. I'm not BLINDED by you. I KNOW you!!!!!!!
This isn't even remedial education. This is consistent with invincible ignorance.

The facts put forth are not addressed. They are not reflected in subsequent discussion. No counter information addressing the same points are offered. The student fails.

There is no ability to absorb and apply evolving abstract thought. The student fails.

There is repetitive use of information already shown by existing fact to be wrong. The student fails.

Conclusion:

This student has an inablility, or unwillingness to recognize the progression of the reasoning process. If it is inability, the student is simply stupid, and has invincible ignorance. If it is unwillingness, the student is European American, and is so disabled by his/her experience as to be beyond rehabilitation.

Recommendation:

Refer to the Strom Thurmond School for Progressive Thought to the attention of its current President Jesse Helms, Professor Emeritus.

PEACE

Jim Chester

JWC

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