A white dudes take on repatriations

@Xeon....to be fair[cuz I always try to be fair] I am referring primarily to the Chinese Exclusion Act[specifically in the United States] which has been repealed[in 1940s] and not the Immigration Act of 1924.

First let me say I am not trying to opine for or against reparations, though I do see the logical reasoning of those in favor. However, having done some reading and research on the internet I would have to agree with XEON, It would appear that reparations is very unlikely to ever happen.

The N’COBRA web site, which by the way appears not to have been updated in several years, list possible sources for reparations primarily being either via legal action or legislative action. Both would seem to be fraught with difficulty.

Legal action would have to be civil action if damages are sought, and suing the U.S. Government has met with little success over the last 223 years, as The United States to this date has not waived sovereign immunity for claims for damages. That leaves you with suing corporations or more difficult yet individuals. I would imagine if legal grounds for such a case or cases existed they would certainly have been filed by now.

Legislative action might be more hopeful, but the last attempt I see reference to HR40 appears to be long ago dead. I realize demographically whites will be in the minority in the not too distant future but I do not see Latinos being in favor of reparations either. Perhaps I am wrong but that is what my gut tells me.

Just another comment from “these folks”

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Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:

See what happens when you acknowledge input from 'these folks' into family business.

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Originally posted by zone:
First let me say I am not trying to opine for or against reparations, though I do see the logical reasoning of those in favor. However, having done some reading and research on the internet I would have to agree with XEON, It would appear that reparations is very unlikely to ever happen.

The N’COBRA web site, which by the way appears not to have been updated in several years, list possible sources for reparations primarily being either via legal action or legislative action. Both would seem to be fraught with difficulty.

Legal action would have to be civil action if damages are sought, and suing the U.S. Government has met with little success over the last 223 years, as The United States to this date has not waived sovereign immunity for claims for damages. That leaves you with suing corporations or more difficult yet individuals. I would imagine if legal grounds for such a case or cases existed they would certainly have been filed by now.

Legislative action might be more hopeful, but the last attempt I see reference to HR40 appears to be long ago dead. I realize demographically whites will be in the minority in the not too distant future but I do not see Latinos being in favor of reparations either. Perhaps I am wrong but that is what my gut tells me.

Just another comment from “these folks”

Hmmmm .... very interesting.

And I definitely see your point. It's a good one.

However ... my personal feeling (and not based on anything remotely 'scientific') is that securing reparations for Black folks is not 'impossible'; i.e., it is possible for an eventual 'happy medium' to be found.

Legislatively does seem to be the more predictable way (regardless of the probable non-support by Latinos). America will have to grow a conscious though, first ... which could mean a pretty long wait.

Don't fight "a white dudes" battle to "take on reparations".

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! That’s funny. Sorry, but my opinions have nothing to do with “white dudes”. Such an accusation is a mindlessly fallacious and groundless. Why falsely accuse me of something simply because you disagree with me? Why not state your reasons for disagreement minus the simple minded race baiting? It serves no meaningful or factual purpose…..

Also, there are indeed jews born, post-holocaust, getting compensated as well.

And in such cases, they could provide documented records of their parents lives. They could provide family pictures, marriages licenses educational achievements, home and business ownership, bank accounts and property documents, execution and death camp documents, etc, etc….. YOU CANNOT PROVIDE THIS. You are just making a fraudulent claim based on your membership of a group. Sorry bro, but that is not going to cut it if you are seeking a compensatory reward in a court of law. Other than misguided wishful thinking, you have zero chances of getting a check (if that is what you seek)…….

They weren't there, yet they are getting reparations to this day and there is no evidence to suggest that they will not receive reparations 100 years after you and I are removed from this existence.

Jewish people have received what they are going to get. They proved their case –you can’t. There were live witnesses, documentation both written and recorded on film, the confessions of their tormentors, legal records, etc, etc….END OF SUBJECT. Your case is just a hyped menagerie of published slave narratives (none of whom you know or ever met or have any personal ties to), historical notes and seething personal emotions. Not much for a legal case. Sorry……

Slavery aside (note: which I am not dismissing one bit), starting from the time blacks were allowed to work at tax paying jobs. Paying taxes for public services they, we, weren't allowed access to. Overtaxed at that. You speak of records, well, uncle sam does a great job of keeping record of taxes and who were paying them.

And? What is your point? That blacks paid taxes for public services and rights they were denied? No doubt. This is absolutely true. But the argument for paying taxes and not receiving certain rights and access for public services, employment, etc, can be made for over weight people, women, poor people, et al. Sorry, but that case (compensation for denial of rights because of paid taxes) is not going anywhere either. For now, you’re 0-2. What next,……?

Nope not anyone! You. This is what you said “ black slaves were like commodities and chattel that had established value.”

So even though you didn’t say blacks were not valuable per se...the implication is there. In other words, your words can be easily depicted as saying that they [blacks] were only valuable as commodities and chattle....not as human beings. You wrote this. I didn’t.

Ummmm…..That’s quite a stretch my friend. My stating that blacks slaves were chattel and commodities is a fact. That is how they were treated and thought of by slave traders and owners. They were sources of revenue through their work efforts, like cows and horses. My statement was an in reference to how they were treated and considered by those who enslaved and used them. No where did I suggest I personally felt that way. You’re making false accusations that serve no meaningful purpose.

As you would say...”duhhhhh" I know it was 175 years ago. And if it were rectified properly and legally back then the way it was supposed to be....it wouldn’t be such an issue 175 years later. Right?

Absolutely! But unfortunately, it wasn’t. All of the salves and their children (who were born and reared in slavery) have been long gone. You, along with every other black person in America, are free to pursue an education, free to vote, free to chose a life occupation, free to marry and enter into contracts with whomever you decide, free to run for public office, free to establish, write or publish literature of your choice regardless of it’s political nature, free to travel aboard and to cross all state lines, free to develop and own your own business, etc, etc. Slaves could not enjoy such freedoms. So, you wanting to get something for the suffering of individuals (whose enslavement ended 144 years ago and not to mention the fact you have every privilege and right they were denied!) you know nothing about personally (other than reading about it), simply because you are a member of the same group they were, is not going to happen…..PERIOD.

We are NOT talking about every other group. We are specifically talking about African Americans. Try to stay focused Again, stay focused.

I have no idea what that statement means. Black slaves in England were emancipatied from legal slavery much earlier than blacks in the United States. I was simply addressing that particular historical fact. Sorry, being focused is not an issue here……

No it doesn’t make sense. And so what if courts are indefinitely frozen with countless litigation and tort cases. There were criminal acts committed against human beings who families should be compensated.

Yes, if you were part of an immediate family that suffered because of wrong doing. You have no such case! Was your father, mother, uncles, aunts or siblings slaves? Did you see the wounds of their physical abuse? Did they personally tell you how harsh life was as a slave? Did you have any personal interaction or a relationship with said individuals (slaves)? I seriously doubt it……

You’re talking about something similar to a massive class action tort law suit (so-called reparations). Negroes who fantasize about such hopeless nonsense would do better to focus on current real issues that black Americans are confronted with Once again….IT AIN’T HAPPNIN’!!!

White boy don’t just get to get away with MURDER!! And forced SLAVERY! Or does he?

Well…..Looks like he did and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Atrocities and the horrific abuse of human beings by other human beings (of all races and ethnicities) is well documented in global history. For some cases there is retribution and redress. But in most cases -there is none. It’s a fact……

He always talking about JUSTICE for all. Right? Afterall[I say this in arrogance] blacks back then were nothing but chattel and commodities.... not humans with the RIGHT to their lives and their freedom. The courts don’t have TIME to right that wrong! Oh no! They only have time to continue imprisoning innocent blackfolks [a new slavery method]for life for friviclous nonviolent crimes....so they can make MORE money off of them

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Yeah……..Right………………….

Excuse me. You don’t have to explain a thang to me. I can read. My brain works just like "yourn."

I don’t think so. If it did, we would not be having this ridiculous conversation about something that is never going to happen not to mention the embarrassing twisted logic that drives it.

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And I never said, “….. once Blacks became humans and not chattel or commodities....we were NO longer valuable.” I have no idea who said that but it was not me.

No. You just IMPLIED it. The same DAMN thang!

You need to move on past this son. I never said nor implied black slaves were nothing more than chattel or commodities in my eyes! Once again: My reference was to the slave sellers and owners mindset. I’ve addressed this before. I have no idea what you are attempting to prove with such nonsensical accusations..

I think you need to mirror you OWN advice Next!

Which is what? Looking at the facts as they are and not through some warped victimization and entitlement glasses? Look, I know this fantasy (so-called reparations) is important to you. And I can tell by the way you write and respond that you are very, very young. Possibly a teenager. But the harsh reality is this –if you believe you’re going to receive a check in the mail simply because you are black (for being a descendent of a group that was once slaves), you’re going to have a very, very, very long wait -like forever! I can’t recall how many times I’ve said this numerous times before my friend -why fantasize about something that cannot and will not happen…..EVER!

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But the argument for paying taxes and not receiving certain rights and access for public services, employment, etc, can be made for over weight people, women, poor people, et al. Sorry, but that case (compensation for denial of rights because of paid taxes) is not going anywhere either. For now, you’re 0-2. What next,……?

I had no argument with what you had been saying up to this point. The flaw in your argument is that Black folks were unique from the groups that you cite to because 1) unlike the other groups, they were denied access to the services that they paid for, by law and BECAUSE they were Black; 2) in the case of women, they had access to the services because of their relationship yo white men.

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Originally posted by Xeon:
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! That’s funny. Sorry, but my opinions have nothing to do with “white dudes”.

There is a saying... "Don't let your good be your evil seen". So while your opinion may not have anything to do with the "white dudes", my advice is still on the table, which is not to take up their battle, as self-righteous you imagine yourself to be...

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You are just making a fraudulent claim .

No, not exactly, more like an error on my part, however I will correct my self. The children of holocaust survivors are attempting to get reparations:

Children of Holocaust Survivors Sue Germany for Psychiatric Care

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,289487,00.html

JERUSALEM —

A group representing thousands of children of Holocaust survivors filed a class-action lawsuit against the German government Monday, demanding that Germany pay for their psychiatric care.

The Israelis, calling themselves second-generation Holocaust survivors, say the scars of the Nazi genocide on their parents have crossed generations. Many still live with an irrational fear of starvation and incapacitating bouts of depression, the lawsuit claims.

The lawsuit marks "the very first time that the German government will be asked to take responsibility and to care for those of the second generation in Israel and indeed, worldwide," attorney Gideon Fisher said before filing the suit at the Tel Aviv District Court.

In Berlin, the German Foreign Ministry declined comment, but the country was likely to see the suit as a window for an indefinite number of future claims.

The suit seeks to set up a German-financed fund to pay for biweekly therapy sessions for 15,000 to 20,000 people, or about $10 million annually for three years.

"If they will not do it voluntarily, and unfortunately they have not done it so far, then I really hope the president of the court here in Tel Aviv would make them take responsibility," said Fisher, a child of Auschwitz survivors who founded the Fisher Fund, the nonprofit group behind the lawsuit.

Baruch Mazor, the fund's director, said 4 to 5 percent of the 400,000 children of survivors in Israel require treatment. Since many cannot hold steady jobs, they cannot pay for their own treatment, and aid from the Israeli government and health insurance have been inadequate, he said.

About 4,000 people have joined the suit, he said.

"The only thing we are asking for is some kind of financial help in order to give them psychiatric treatment. There will be no money passed from hand to hand," Mazor said Monday.

It was unclear what standing the Israeli court would have in a damages case against a foreign country.

Mazor said the Tel Aviv suit was a first step aimed at winning recognition that Germany bears responsibility for the suffering of survivors' children. The plaintiffs will then try to negotiate a settlement, or will take their case to a German or an international court, he said.

Since the 1950s, Germany has paid more than $60 billion in reparations to concentration camp survivors, families of the some of the 6 million Jewish victims, and to the state of Israel. Much of that money went to the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany, a New York-based organization that negotiates with Germany and distributes the payments.

Mazor said money handled by the Claims Conference is earmarked for survivors, and their children did not want to detract from those funds.

The suit says the second generation grew up "in the shadow of depression, grief and guilt of their parents, which created a powerful inclination among the children for pain and suffering."

Children had a "twisted relationship with their parents" that impeded their development and led to severe psychological problems, the suit claims.

One 58-year-old woman told her story to Israel Radio Sunday, saying she inherited the fear of starvation experienced by her parents in Auschwitz, where inmates prized any crust of bread they could obtain.

"If you come to my house and open the freezer, loaves of bread fall on you, without any proportion to what I really need," the woman said.

She declined to disclose her name, but Mazor said she spoke for thousands.

She said she felt as if she had no childhood, and jumped directly into adolescence. The feeling conveyed by her father was: "I went through hell, and what you are going through is nothing," she said.

Others of the second generation say they cannot ride buses because it reminds them of the transports their parents took to the concentration camps, or they fear dogs because they were used by the Nazis to control crowds.

Mazor said the Fisher Fund held lengthy negotiations with the German Embassy over the compensation claims, but the talks were cut off by the Germans.

This report is fairly recent: 16/07/2007 I used it to silence a jew in a debate a couple of years ago regarding reparations.

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And? What is your point?

The point is documentation, records. You made such and issue of it. I provided that your uncle keeps [tax] records. I can trace my folks, on both sides, back to 1878-79. And with a little more research, I can show how through the decades that many worked tax paying jobs.

Whether I see reparations in my life time or not (don't make me none one way or the other, but I'm not hating), strawmanning me with "can be made for over weight people, women, poor people, et al.", is not gonna fly. Simply because we aren't talking about "over weight people, women, poor people, et al". We are talking about black people, that is, black men and black women.

Originally posted Xeon

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Ummmm…..That’s quite a stretch my friend. My stating that blacks slaves were chattel and commodities is a fact. That is how they were treated and thought of by slave traders and owners. They were sources of revenue through their work efforts, like cows and horses. My statement was an in reference to how they were treated and considered by those who enslaved and used them. No where did I suggest I personally felt that way. You’re making false accusations that serve no meaningful purpose.

Nope. You're the one....stretching. What ELSE could we be possibly TALKING about? It IS PERSONAL! It was the WAY in which you implied...my friend. And...why wouldn't it be? Don't distract. Cuz quite frankly there is no false accusation occuring when a person makes such statement. It isn't objective...is it? Of course not. So whether it is personal or not....that's beside the point. The point is your statement fact or not is a sure indication that slaves were NOT view as human beings. Here's what you said "...Besides, when that happened, the slaves and slave owners were still alive. What slave or slave owner do you know personally??? Besides, the slaves that they lost were tangible losses that could be accounted for. Unlike your abstract apocryphal notion of reparations, black slaves were like commodities and chattel that had established value."

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Absolutely! But unfortunately, it wasn’t. All of the salves and their children (who were born and reared in slavery) have been long gone. You, along with every other black person in America, are free to pursue an education, free to vote, free to chose a life occupation, free to marry and enter into contracts with whomever you decide, free to run for public office, free to establish, write or publish literature of your choice regardless of it’s political nature, free to travel aboard and to cross all state lines, free to develop and own your own business, etc, etc. Slaves could not enjoy such freedoms.

What's soooo sad is YOU DON'T GET IT. White boy and their children i.e. descendants have benefitted as result of those who were in slavery. White boy's children inherit the WEALTH from slavery. Just like when the Nazi took from the families of the Jews....they[Jews and their families] got a lot of it BACK i.e. money/jewelry/properties....even though there are many Jews who did not SURVIVE!!!

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So, you wanting to get something for the suffering of individuals (whose enslavement ended 144 years ago and not to mention the fact you have every privilege and right they were denied!) you know nothing about personally (other than reading about it), simply because you are a member of the same group they were, is not going to happen…..PERIOD.

Yep! 144 years of segregation, Jim Crow...driving while black and alladat! White boy been ahead 200 years...so! And the education? What a joke. It's been less than 40 years where children in some rural/inner city parts of the black community were NOT able to get current books! And it was NEVER even or equal....but! You know my brotha...as I said to you before your "white" is showing. It appears you are an intelligent lot...but! I don't get how you can simply IGNORE the theivery and social devastation that the Europeans have done.

You really DON'T think their children who are definitely reaping the benefits BIG TIME should pay for that? If not them...then whom? Or should we just be GLAD that they finally let our people FREE? And be grateful regarding the crumbs they are throwing at us. First of all....Africans weren't BORN slaves...they were always FREE...it was MAN to make them slaves....Secondly...Africans had their own CODE of priviledge i.e. education/civic knowledge/social structure/ etc. where they WERE..that is in Africa!! [They were highly advanced people prior to the European invasion] So again...white boy didn't give them anything....that weren't theirs initially as HUMAN BEINGS. So. I'm still confused with your theory. But! Here's a question. Why should white boy's descendants get to continue enjoying the bloody fruits of their founding fathers [slave] labor...when it was cultural/socially/humanely WRONG in the first place? 'plain

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I have no idea what that statement means.

Such a pity....cuz I do...but! I think you're playin' you have no idea....

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Black slaves in England were emancipatied from legal slavery much earlier than blacks in the United States.

I know that

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I was simply addressing that particular historical fact.

I was expressing a particular historical fact as well. However, you seem to want to pick and chose...or natural select....your understanding of what I'm sayin'. It doesn't take a rocket scientist. Nope! Not at all.

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Sorry, being focused is not an issue here……

Maybe not to you...but! I think so.

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Yes, if you were part of an immediate family that suffered because of wrong doing. You have no such case!

You think like massa. He did the wrong....now he wants to write the rules to RIGHT the wrong. Well....he doesn't get to do that! He's NOT God!

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Was your father, mother, uncles, aunts or siblings slaves?

In your view..descendants don't count even though they are suffering as a result of what was done to their ancestors. Where is your compassion/empathy when it comes to Blacks? And yet...you seem to carry it for whiteboy. Interesting

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Did you see the wounds of their physical abuse? Did they personally tell you how harsh life was as a slave?

Yes I see the WOUNDS! There are psychological wounds...a raping of an entire culture/continent. Yes I see the wounds of physical abuse...where slaves couldn't raise/care for their families and as a result adopt a foreign way of life...massa's life. This physical abuse manifest into low self esteem....denial carried down generational into what can be perceived as the "stockholm" syndome for many Blacks who did not know ANY better cuz they had no clue who they were...so it was a RAPE of identity as a result of the physical abuse of slavery.

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Did you have any personal interaction or a relationship with said individuals (slaves)?

Yes, my interaction passed down through slave forklore i.e. stories their treatment as slaves told through their songs in the Gospel/spiritual period and also told through the blues period. Yes my personal relationship is with the descendants of the slaves who were STILL treated inhumane during segegration, Jim Crow, during the civil rights...and in many instances today....cuz why? White boy HAVEN'T changed a bit. I don't know where you live....but! Where I come from I see the ramifications of slavery....EVERY. DAY!

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I seriously doubt it……

AND...It's not what you seriously doubt....it's what you seriously DON'T have...and that's a social....[empathic] conscious. Pity

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You’re talking about something similar to a massive class action tort law suit (so-called reparations). Negroes who fantasize about such hopeless nonsense would do better to focus on current real issues that black Americans are confronted with Once again….IT AIN’T HAPPNIN’

Massa said negroes fanatized/dreamed about being free....it's not gonna happen. It did. Massa said it would NEVER be a black president. It is. So fantasy to yall. Dreams to us. And guess what? Dreams do come TRUE...cuz there are those of us who keep going to make it happen. What is it called? Hope!!! Vision!

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Well…..Looks like he did and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Atrocities and the horrific abuse of human beings by other human beings (of all races and ethnicities) is well documented in global history. For some cases there is retribution and redress. But in most cases -there is none. It’s a fact…

It's still EARLY in the party/game my brotha. Anything is possible. Just cuz white boy and YOU don't want it to happen....doesn't mean it isn't. We are still living...and as long as we ARE STILL breathing...in this life...ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. Watch!

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Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Yeah……..Right………………….

Yeah...well see WHO gets the LAST LAUGH. ...right?

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I don’t think so. If it did, we would not be having this ridiculous conversation about something that is never going to happen not to mention the embarrassing twisted logic that drives it.

Ridiculous to you. A lot of SENSE to me. Sorry. I don't have ANYTHING to be embarassed about. My logic is just as good as yourn...if not better. But I know you heard the sayin' ...if we waited on folks like you to make a difference...we still be SLAVES Thankgod....there are those of us who moved forward inspite of the likes of those of you....but!

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Which is what? Looking at the facts as they are and not through some warped victimization and entitlement glasses? Look, I know this fantasy (so-called reparations) is important to you. And I can tell by the way you write and respond that you are very, very young. Possibly a teenager.

You think I'm a teenager???!! Damn! Get the hell outta here! Well...I actually deal with adolescents daily[does that count?]...and I deliberately keep my vocabulary/writings simple strictly for comprehension/communication purposes....cuz you know how they are...any excuse not to do their homework...but! Damn my brotha. Here's a kiss! Hell I can't even get mad at ya.... I love it! A teenager? Wow! I know this probably was meant to be an insult...but! Okay...I can only surmise that what you said only means that I keep my mind/perspective fresh and open..i.e. anew. Cuz of my style of writing. Okay. But! That's what happens when you are around young adults/folks..you adopt their lingo. Or...I seem youthful You complimented me....and didn't even know it. Again.

Oh. but. you. said "warped". Okay Iguess I should respond...Whew! The only thang that's warped...my brotha is your twisted interpretation of the most horrific crime in humankind. I guess when you are not directly affected by it....you can view others who are [affected] as such...but! Thankgod there are much STRONGER thinkers...than you...who. can. see. beyond. the glass darkly and can recognize that it is MORE than victimization and entitlement....it is about righting many many WRONGS done to unsuspecting human beings...but! Selfish folks who are responsible for these wrongs still want to hold on to this sick sense of power....and then hide behind god/politics/or whatever to justify WHY they shouldn't have to do anything...but! What goes around....will EVENTUALLY come. It's just a matter of time.

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But the harsh reality is this –if you believe you’re going to receive a check in the mail simply because you are black (for being a descendent of a group that was once slaves), you’re going to have a very, very, very long wait -like forever! I can’t recall how many times I’ve said this numerous times before my friend -why fantasize about something that cannot and will not happen…..EVER!

It is a pity...cuz amazing things ALWAYS happen when one DREAMS/fantasizes....ask the astronaut....or the wright brothers or the many many scientists or inventors or writers or artists or just too many damn folks to mention...but! You got my point...right? Dontcha KNOW everything starts with a dream? When one fantasize about the what ifs and make it happen. And it will happen...my brotha. The proof is in the puddin'. Impossible accomplishments have occurred in this lifetime. Where in the hell have YOU been? And when was the LAST time you dreamed about sumthin? Try it! You sound like you're in NEED of a good dream...but!

Nope. You're the one....stretching. What ELSE could we be possibly TALKING about? Just like when the Nazi took from the families of the Jews....they[Jews and their families] got a lot of it BACK i.e. money/jewelry/properties....even though there are many Jews who did not SURVIVE!!!

I'm stretching the truth or facts? Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Not hardly. Anyway, for the record, some Jews were compensated (1952) but not all. I have covered this before as to why. Not going to do it again. And you really need to move on and stop obsessing about Jews. It’s pointless and serves no purpose whatsoever. They have nothing to do with your fraudulent misguided hopes and fantasies my friend. Again, stay focused.......

You think like massa. He did the wrong....now he wants to write the rules to RIGHT the wrong. Well....he doesn't get to do that! He's NOT God!

I think like “massa”???!!! Oh Lord…..Whatever......Next……

In your view..descendants don't count even though they are suffering as a result of what was done to their ancestors. Where is your compassion/empathy when it comes to lacks? And yet...you seem to carry it for whiteboy.

First of all, you or no other Negro in America is suffering from slavery. This is 2009, not 1950 my friend. Your life is what it is as result of what you put into it and what you want out of it. No one is stopping you because of your race from getting an education, running for public office, voting for whomever you choose to vote for, creating your own business, traveling abroad, marrying whom you choose regardless of their ethnicity or race, owning and selling property, becoming a commissioned officer in the military or going to law school, becoming a federal agent, policeman or becoming a civil engineer, etc, etc, etc.... SLAVES COULD DO NONE OF THE AFOREMENTIONED….PERIOD!!!

You need to move past your whiney cancerous victimization and entitlement mentality my friend. It’s worse than racism. One more time: NO ONE OWES YOU ANYTHING AND YOU ARE NOT GETTING A CHECK!!!!!

And yes, I have much compassion and empathy for black people. But I have little use for wimpy Negroes who wallow in the gutters of past grievances and history, opting to play the Three Card Molly guilt mind trick game rather than focus on the many opportunities that are in front of them. And “white boys” have absolutely nothing to do with this conversation.

It's still EARLY in the party/game my brotha. Anything is possible. Just cuz white boy and YOU don't want it to happen....doesn't mean it isn't. We are still living...and as long as we ARE STILL breathing...in this life...ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. Watch!

ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE? Oh, I agree. Hopefully you are referring to black children being able to rise their SAT and high school graduation testing scores to the passing national level, the black out of wedlock rate would drastically decrease, the level of black on black violent crime rate would drastically drop, marriage would once again be a major component in black America so that black children would have the benefit of being raised by a father and mother, black rates for obesity, high blood pressure, AIDS and cancer mortality rates would greatly decline, etc, etc...... Yeah, I wish all the aforementioned were possible....but figure the odds of any of it happening any time soon.........

Oh yeah, before I forget, one thing that is next to impossible -is you getting a reparation check. Sorry......Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

Yeah...well see WHO gets the LAST LAUGH. ...right? Thankgod....there are those of us who moved forward inspite of the likes of those of you....but!

Move forward in spite of those like me???? Not sure I understand what you mean. How am I personally responsible for black people not being able to progress or falling to the waste side of life? What proof or evidence do you have to support such a suggestion? Please present it……

You think I'm a teenager???!!

Ummmmm......By your writing, ideas and temepermant, yes, I would say so.............

Damn! Get the hell outta here! ]...and I deliberately keep my vocabulary/writings simple strictly for comprehension/communication purposes....cuz you know how they are...any excuse not to do their homework...but! Damn my brotha. Here's a kiss! Hell I can't even get mad at ya.... I love it! A teenager? Wow! I know this probably was meant to be an insult...but!

No, I was not trying to insult you. There is no need for that. I was serious. But there is nothing wrong with being very young my friend. As you grow older and experience more, your intellectual horizons and understanding will become much wider and comprehensive. Trust me....

Okay...I can only surmise that what you said only means that I keep my mind/perspective fresh and open..i.e. anew. Cuz of my style of writing. Okay. But! That's what happens when you are around young adults/folks..you adopt their lingo. Or...I seem youthful

Oh? Is that what it is? The children influence the adult and not the other way around? Ok….I see.........

Oh. but. you. said "warped". Okay Iguess I should respond...Whew! The only thang that's warped...my brotha is your twisted interpretation of the most horrific crime in humankind.

Oh really? And just how and why is my understanding of slavery twisted? I don’t recall saying it was ok to enslave and abuse a race of people. What’s your reference?

I guess when you are not directly affected by it....you can view others who are [affected] as such...but!

True. That can be said for any argument. What’s yours? You are no more affected nor controlled buy a period of history that you only know of through reading than I am or any other black person. Oh yeah, and why aren’t your ranting and demanding an apology from your black African brethren who sold you into slavery? Without their complicity and pro-active involvement, it never could have happened as Alex Haley has lead you to believe.

It is a pity...cuz amazing things ALWAYS happen when one DREAMS/fantasizes....ask the astronaut....or the wright brothers or the many many scientists or inventors or writers or artists or just too many damn folks to mention...but! You got my point...right? Dontcha KNOW everything starts with a dream? When one fantasize about the what ifs and make it happen. And it will happen...my brotha. The proof is in the puddin'. Impossible accomplishments have occurred in this lifetime.

That was a nice little ramble but unfortunately, it has nothing to do with you (or any other Negros that believes this farcical fantasy is going to happen) getting a check. Once again, you can rant and play the victimization and entitlement card to the nth degree but congress....is....not.....going...to....give....you....a....check....just....because.....you....are....black.....EVER!!!!

Where in the hell have YOU been? And when was the LAST time you dreamed about sumthin?

I've been right here. Where else am I supposed to be? And yes, I dream everyday. But my dreams and hopes are rooted in reality.....not wishful thinking and grandiose Negrosity fantasies. Big difference......

quote:

why aren’t your ranting and demanding an apology from your black African brethren who sold you into slavery?

What afrikan tribe(s) sold us into slavery? I'm not saying that it did not happen, for I am asking for details. The tribe, the climate in which and how it took place. I'm usually interested in black folks explanation.

However, I find it interesting that no one mentions how jews were sold out by the judenrat to the nazi's. With that said, jews aren't scrutinzed about that fact. No one says, "your own people sold you out to the nazi's, so if anybody owes you is your own people".

Originally posted by Xeon

quote:

I'm stretching the truth or facts? Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Not hardly. Anyway, for the record, some Jews were compensated (1952) but not all. I have covered this before as to why. Not going to do it again. And you really need to move on and stop obsessing about Jews. It's pointless and serves no purpose whatsoever. They have nothing to do with your fraudulent misguided hopes and fantasies my friend. Again, stay focused......

What is so fraudulent or misguided about hope? First of all there is NOTHING fraudulent....or misguided about what I said about hope. If blackfolks carried your attitude about having fraudulent misguided HOPE...…we will STILL be SLAVES! That’s PROOF right there. You are such a JOKE! Sumthin is seruiously WRONG with you. BTW: I know some Jews were compensated....and look I'm not expecting a history lesson on Jews from YOU. Please

quote:

I think like "massa"???!!! Oh Lord…..Whatever......Next……

I didn't studder...when I said it.

quote:

First of all, you or no other Negro in America is suffering from slavery. This is 2009, not 1950 my friend. Your life is what it is as result of what you put into it and what you want out of it. No one is stopping you because of your race from getting an education, running for public office, voting for whomever you choose to vote for, creating your own business, traveling abroad, marrying whom you choose regardless of their ethnicity or race, owning and selling property, becoming a commissioned officer in the military or going to law school, becoming a federal agent, policeman or becoming a civil engineer, etc, etc, etc.... SLAVES COULD DO NONE OF THE AFOREMENTIONED….PERIOD!!!

I know what year it is. Just so you know there are MANY black folks STILL suffering from the ramifications of slavery. You just DON'T want to see it or recogize it. And prior to slavery....Africans in their country could MARRY WHOM they wanted and could participate in the forementioned. So it’s not like whiteboy is god and he now provide human beings with something they were already doing in their own CONTINENT prior to being STOLEN by him. Please....you need to get out that "bubble"!

quote:

You need to move past your whiney cancerous victimization and entitlement mentality my friend. It's worse than racism. One more time: NO ONE OWES YOU ANYTHING AND YOU ARE NOT GETTING A CHECK!!!!!

That’s all you can think about. A check? Man. Again. There’s truly sumthin...wrong with you

quote:

And yes, I have much compassion and empathy for black people.

Nawl you don’t. I can tell by the way you talk. If that's compassion and empathy...I know there's a rope and a taser somewhere behind your back.

quote:

But I have little use for wimpy Negroes who wallow in the gutters of past grievances and history, opting to play the Three Card Molly guilt mind trick game rather than focus on the many opportunities that are in front of them. And "white boys" have absolutely nothing to do with this conversation.

As I said before...it's more than victimization and entitlement[don't distract...FOCUS]...so if that what I said...then it's gonna take more than MONEY! Any fool knows that. And the way I see it...either your tryin’ to pass.....or you’re wearing the MASK...which it is?
Cuz you are definitely not a brotha! Maybe nuts is probably more accurate

quote:

ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE? Oh, I agree. Hopefully you are referring to black children being able to rise their SAT and high school graduation testing scores to the passing national level, the black out of wedlock rate would drastically decrease, the level of black on black violent crime rate would drastically drop, marriage would once again be a major component in black America so that black children would have the benefit of being raised by a father and mother, black rates for obesity, high blood pressure, AIDS and cancer mortality rates would greatly decline, etc, etc...... Yeah, I wish all the aforementioned were possible....but figure the odds of any of it happening any time soon........

Sound like massa to me..talking like blacks are the only group affected these forementioned...massa HAD them first! But I recognized that whenever there is some subtantial to talk in reference to reparation....like massa you always go there and talk about everything else. As if we don't see it. We see it. But! I said WHAT I meant. AND I don't need YOU to think for me.

quote:

Oh yeah, before I forget, one thing that is next to impossible -is you getting a reparation check. Sorry......Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

It's not all about MONEY. But didn't I JUST say that? Geez Thick and....PITIFUL!

quote:

Move forward in spite of those like me???? Not sure I understand what you mean. How am I personally responsible for black people not being able to progress or falling to the waste side of life? What proof or evidence do you have to support such a suggestion? Please present it……

I said the "like of those of you"... Question? Have you EVER taken a English class? Cuz you talk out the side of your neck. And...I take back that I thought you were an intelligent lot. It was a delusion..

quote:

Ummmmm......By your writing, ideas and temepermant, yes, I would say so.............

Your opinion....which THANKGOD is not truth. If I ever cared...about what ANY body thought about me. Don't you know by now…I careless? Pleassssse: Don't give a sweet fock. And oh yeah...that's real my brotha OR whatevah you are

quote:

was not trying to insult you. There is no need for that. I was serious. But there is nothing wrong with being very young my friend. As you grow older and experience more, your intellectual horizons and understanding will become much wider and comprehensive. Trust me.

No. You trust this I don't have to prove a thang to you. I know who I am. Believe what you want. Again. Care the fock less what you think. My intellectual horizons...journey....experience. Is what? None of your focking business-got that? I'm not trying to impress you in the least Next!

quote:

what it is? The children influence the adult and not the other way around? Ok….I see.........

Yep! In that way, I will never be azz backward in my thinking. I will never allow massa to continue poisioning my ability to have vision. If that is what being associated with the innocence of children does...then yep that's me. Cuz from the looks of things.... we will still be riding horse and buggie for transportation with outside plumbing if we thought “old/backward/complacent” like those of your mentality...which includes massa of course. But to be inspired and motivated by the brilliance of future thinking....thrills me to the nth power!

quote:

Oh really? And just how and why is my understanding of slavery twisted? I don't recall saying it was ok to enslave and abuse a race of people. What's your reference?

My reference is your “warped” racist illogical conjecture.

quote:

True. That can be said for any argument. What's yours? You are no more affected nor controlled buy a period of history that you only know of through reading than I am or any other black person. Oh yeah, and why aren't your ranting and demanding an apology from your black African brethren who sold you into slavery? Without their complicity and pro-active involvement, it never could have happened as Alex Haley has lead you to believe.

Alex Haley? Alex? What the fock is wrong with you? Now I know you have lost your damn mind. And probably the whitest white boy in town. And for the record, you DON'T know what I've been AFFECTED by. Even the most miseducated person knows it wasn't just "black" brethen involved in slavery....it was also the muslims, the berbers, the arabs and the jews who participated in it! You. REALLY Need. To. Go. Back and read up on slavery. Again. The real truth this time. And NOT what massa has twisted your mind thinking. Geez

quote:

That was a nice little ramble but unfortunately, it has nothing to do with you (or any other Negros that believes this farcical fantasy is going to happen) getting a check. Once again, you can rant and play the victimization and entitlement card to the nth degree but congress....is....not.....going...to....give....you....a....check....just....because.....you....are....black.....EVER!!!!

I haven't ranted at all about victimization or entitlement. Just stating FACTS. Sumthin wrong..my brotha? Cuz you are definitely NOT all-knowing...and don’t have a CLUE what congress will eventually do.

quote:

I've been right here. Where else am I supposed to be? And yes, I dream everyday. But my dreams and hopes are rooted in reality.....not wishful thinking and grandiose Negrosity fantasies. Big difference......

How sad. You've been walking around with blinders most your life that is...if you're black at all. Which I seriously doubt...but do know that the blackest of us will act like you and explode with all this house nigrah whoopla...but! Just so you know CLEARLY...just cuz you say it won't happen....is NOT gonna deter the FACT that ONE day….it will. Just cuz you say it ain't so. Doesn't mean it ain't so. No matter how you try to minimize my viewpoint with your european/designer verbage...it still WILL not CHANGE a thang. Cuz why? You. Have. No. Power. TO. KNOW for sure One way or the other. But most importantly it's not up to YOU[or your kind]. Cuz one day it's gonna happen. Believe that! It may even be a totally different version of reparation. Who knows....but! Call it what you want. Fantasy. Dream. But! One day...it will be a reality. Watch!

What is so fraudulent or misguided about hope? First of all there is NOTHING fraudulent....or misguided about what I said about hope.

Yes it is. Especially you if you believe you are going to get a check for something that happened more than 144 years ago that had nothing to do with you. And you are very misguided for believing you deserve or have legal rights to a grievance that happened more than 100 years before you were born!

If blackfolks carried your attitude about having fraudulent misguided HOPE...…we will STILL be SLAVES!

Wow! That’s a silly statement that strains reality. You can provide no proof to support such a ridiculous acerbic jab other than you and I disagreeing about a pipe dream (that will never happen -sorry!) and you resorting to pernicious personal attacks for me disagreeing with you. Next….

I know what year it is. Just so you know there are MANY black folks STILL suffering from the ramifications of slavery.

Oh really? Like what? Are you not free to do as you please? Have you been denied service at a bank, restaurant, grocery store or hotel because you are black? Has anyone told you that you cannot receive an education because you are black? Has anyone told you that you cannot vote or run for public office because you are black? Has anyone prevented you from owning property or creating a business because you are black? The list goes on and on and on… YOU ARE NOT A SLAVE….BUT YOU DO THINK LIKE ONE. Sorry my friend but I can’t soft peddle this fact….

That’s all you can think about. A check? Man. Again. There’s truly sumthin...wrong with you

Oh? OK, well then tell me exactly what you believe you are entitled to. What do you believe you should be given for simply having (and no other reason) black skin? WHAT EXACTLY IS THE REPARATIONS YOU SO PASSIONATELY SEEK? Details please…..

quote:
And yes, I have much compassion and empathy for black people.

Nawl you don’t. I can tell by the way you talk. If that's compassion and empathy...I know there's a rope and a taser somewhere behind your back.

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! That’s funny. But sorry, your interpretation of compassion and empathy is different from mine. The difference is you believe someone who happens to be black should be given a check (or whatever –you’ve failed to say so) for simply being a member of an historically aggrieved group. That doesn’t cut it with me. I’ve explained why before. Not doing it again…..

Sound like massa to me..talking like blacks are the only group affected these forementioned...massa HAD them first!

Sounds like “massa” to you? That’s a very strange and bizarre reference. “Massa” is your self serving credulous rebuke of documented facts? Blacks have the lowest consistent group SAT scores? Blacks have the highest violent crime percentages as a group? Blacks have the highest illegitimacy rates as a group? Blacks have the highest rates of high blood pressure, AIDS and cancer mortality rates? All of the aforementioned is a lie? Right? It’s all twisted racist fabrications and the supporting data cannot be provided by substantiated sources? None of it is true? Wow! Ok…My bad…….

But I recognized that whenever there is some subtantial to talk in reference to reparation....like massa you always go there and talk about everything else. As if we don't see it. We see it. But! I said WHAT I meant. AND I don't need YOU to think for me.

Well, you dodged that bullet. I see you skirted around the obvious harsh realities. I guess your continuous “massa” reference is your panacea since you cannot address the facts but will resort to innuendo and personal attacks (which are totally irrelevant to the issues). Oh well…….

I said the "like of those of you"... Question? Have you EVER taken a English class? Cuz you talk out the side of your neck. And...I take back that I thought you were an intelligent lot. It was a delusion..

No…..No….You made an accusation and I asked you to explain how I was hampering the progress or freedom of black people. You skirted the issue (again) with a personal attack. Look, it’s like this, if you are going to accuse someone of something, it only serves to bolster your accusations if you can provide proof or examples of the accused transgressions. YOU HAVE PROVIDED NOTHING TO DATE OTHER THAN MAKE MORE VAPID IRRELEVANT ACCUSATIONS. Next……

No. You trust this I don't have to prove a thang to you. I know who I am. Believe what you want. Again. Care the fock less what you think. My intellectual horizons...journey....experience. Is what? None of your focking business-got that? I'm not trying to impress you……..

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! The bellicose temper tantrum continues. Moving on…..

Yep! In that way, I will never be azz backward in my thinking. I will never allow massa to continue poisioning my ability to have vision. If that is what being associated…….riding horse and buggie for transportation with outside plumbing if we thought “old/backward/complacent” like………. But to be inspired and motivated by the brilliance of future thinking....thrills me to the nth power!

Ramble…ramble…ramble…..no continuity…no point……Next…..

Alex Haley? Alex? What the fock is wrong with you? Now I know you have lost your damn mind. And probably the whitest white boy in town. And for the record, you…………Go. Back and read up on slavery. Again. The real truth this time. And NOT what massa has twisted your mind thinking. Geez

There’s that voice in your head again (“massa”). I stated the obvious (again) and you skirted the issue (again) with a silly personal attack (again). Everything I said was true but your Afro-incongruity somehow led you to another convoluted rant. And for the record, I’m very knowledgeable about American history my friend. Your comment about me needing to read about slavery made about as much sense as a person with a throbbing toothache calling plumber!

I haven't ranted at all about victimization or entitlement.

Oh Yes you do!!!! In every post you hysterically rant and rave about “massa” (the omnipresent voice in your head) about what you think someone owes you for no other reason than being a member of a group that suffered an historical injustice. Pulezzz….

How sad. You've been walking around with blinders most your life that is...if you're black at all. …..CLEARLY...just cuz you say it won't happen....is NOT gonna deter the FACT that ONE day….it will.

Oh really??? And what day might this be? Exactly what is this reparations you believe you are entitled to? Who gets it and who does not? Who is eligible and why are they eligible? How much? Where is the money going to come from? Federal money from American tax payers? If not money -then what? Who will authorize it? Congress? The president? Once again, you talk the talk -now walk the walk…no more vitriolic disjointed rants, temper tantrums and evasive irrelevant personal attacks -just definitive details and answers to my questions. I’m interested in what you have to say…..

Power. TO. KNOW for sure One way or the other. But most importantly it's not up to YOU[or your kind].

Not up to me?? Or my kind? Uh huh…..and exactly what is not hinging on my approval? Read this: THE PEOPLE YOU WANT A CHECK FROM ARE NOT GIVING IT TO YOU…..EVER!!!!

Cuz one day it's gonna happen. Believe that! It may even be a totally different version of reparation. Who knows....but! Call it what you want. Fantasy. Dream. But! One day...it will be a reality. Watch!

Ok……. Oh yeah, how about a gold unicorn and a rainbow to go along with your reparations check? That would be nice. Keep dreaming my friend……Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

There is a saying... "Don't let your good be your evil seen". So while your opinion may not have anything to do with the "white dudes", my advice is still on the table, which is not to take up their battle, as self-righteous you imagine yourself to be...

As I said before, my commentary has nothing to do with “white dudes” or picking up the torch for anti-black elements. Such an accusation is typical of embittered intellectually disheveled Negroes who resort to personal attacks and vacuous simple minded accusations of race disloyalty because you disagree with them. The idea that you do not mindlessly swallow some form of Afro-centric Pollyanna orthodoxy is extremely unsettling to them.

The idea that another black person would not agree with their whiny victimization and entitlement heresy is more than they can tolerate. So, those who defy the “Black Collective Borg” mindset, the punishment is a phalanx of improvable obnoxious personal accusations and name calling. Never mind the core issue at hand. They must attempt to discredit you by name calling and howls of race disloyalty. But realistically -what else can they to do? They can’t intelligently nor effectively debate the topic so the next best thing is to go to the race card and personal attacks. Happens all the time…..

@Xeon... Your opinion I'm NOT looking for you to AGREE with anything I say. I know what I know. And all that blah blah blah you're spewing is nothing...but. Empty words and no action. And my being self-righteous...ha! What a joke. But. I don't have to prove a thang to you about what my motivations are. I am the leader in my life. And unlike you...I walk it. Not talk it. So. You're wrong!

BTW There's nothing about YOU unsettling. I see folks like you. Every. Day. And the only thing that's typical is your arrogant snobbery. I call it like I see it. It's not a personal attack. It's the truth. In addition, I would engage in an intelligent convo....if I were involved in one. Talking to an individual who THINKS he's an intellect..simply cuz he uses designer words is ASINE. It's the quality within the content of the "words" said....not the quantity of words spewed. Besides, some folks often confused intelligence with wisdom. Intelligence [IMO] [is artifical knowledge] doesn't mean it's has merit or value or experience or even TRUTH....however wisdom has all of the above which makes it more acceptable/reliable. And if I am talking to someone I rather that person be "wise" in his knowledge/experience/perspective as opposed to pretending to be intelligent[a learned condition] and void of humility. Big difference! So...really in all the "things" you have said using your "designer" words-which is babble to me ...actually you haven't said a thang[impressive]. Nope. Nothin at all. Which is simply tragic...cuz that's how "massa" talks.. i.e. the way you express yourself...just like massa[and there's absolutely nothing impressive about him]...but!

Oh yeah...before I forget. Americans always talk about the American "dream" Martin Luther King Jr's speech "I have a dream." Everybody talking about "dream/vision...but you! This whole country's motto is BASED on a "dream." I think you NEED to revisit your thinking...my friend. And step out of that "nightmare" of negativity. Cuz...really. Ha! There's where your problem lies. It's as clear as bell To me anyway....but!


Oh and another thang.... you may be knowledgeable about Massa's version of American History...but! A lot of it is ....what? LIES! LIES! LIES! Don't believe me? Ask the Native American. The west was not WON my friend...it was STOLEN!!!! BUT! Believe what you want. Here's where we part ways.

quote:

Originally posted by Kocolicious:
@Xeon... Your opinion I'm NOT looking for you to AGREE with anything I say.

DITTO!

Is there a point in engaging the willfully ignorant? The reality deny-ers? The agenda pushers?

quote:

@Xeon... Your opinion I'm NOT looking for you to AGREE with anything I say. I know what I know. And all that blah blah blah you're spewing is nothing...but. Empty words and no action. And my being self-righteous...ha! What a joke. But. I don't have to prove a thang to you about what my motivations are. I am the leader in my life. And unlike you...I walk it. Not talk it. So. You're wrong!

Good. But I don’t recall asking you to agree with me about anything. I just asked for some clarifications about a few things (which you refused to do). Nothing more. It’s very obvious we have different opinions. I think we can both agree to this….

quote:

BTW There's nothing about YOU unsettling. I see folks like you. Every. Day. And the only thing that's typical is your arrogant snobbery. I call it like I see it. It's not a personal attack. It's the truth. In addition, I would engage in an……. actually you haven't said a thang[impressive]. Nope. Nothin at all. Which is simply tragic...cuz that's how "massa" talks.. i.e. the way you express yourself...just like massa[and there's absolutely nothing impressive about him]...but!

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! So you say……

quote:

Oh and another thang.... you may be knowledgeable about Massa's version of American History...but! A lot of it is ....what? LIES! LIES! LIES! Don't believe me? Ask the Native American. The west was not WON my friend...it was STOLEN!!!! BUT! Believe what you want. Here's where we part ways.

Uh huh….I see. Well, I also don’t recall making any false comments about Native Americans or the history of the West. I’m very aware of the history of the West and the genocide campaign waged against Native Americans. And I guess your antithetical panacea alter ego (massa) includes lies written by John Hope Franklin and George W. Williams? Ok….I guess we can close this out now. Have a nice day……

quote:

Is there a point in engaging the willfully ignorant? The reality deny-ers? The agenda pushers?

...........

quote:

Originally posted by Xeon:

[/i]) includes lies written by John Hope Franklin …

That should end all speculation about the absolute worthlessness of this cause...in case there was any...

What's the going rate on validation from a spambot anyway?

^^^Well personally, I'm not sure about what the going rate for validation from a spambot is... but I wouldn't exactly call this discussion and others like it "worthless". Notwithstanding Xeon's usual display of pseudo intellectual snobbery.... which contains all the racial integrity of a smiling/shining caricature of a black man... such as can be found on a box of cream of wheat. There is however indeed some value that can be found in these types of discussions.... in that it helps Blacks to start thinking along the lines of being compensated for past wrongs that were done to them. Now at the very least I feel that Xeon serves a good purpose in his role of playing 'Devil's Advocate' (although I'm sure he sternly believes what he says) and he is raising issues that anyone who is truly serious about reparations should address.

For example he has stated that Blacks won't get some 'big ole' check' nor should they...I happen to agree with that. I have a more advanced idea of what true reparations for Blacks would/should be... I have mentioned it on this site before and I may reiterate it later. However, I would be interested in knowing what other proponents of reparations consider to be proper compensation for Blacks. Perhaps there are those like myself who have a much broader view regarding what reparations are and who like myself don't limit it simply to a 'check'. If this is the case then Xeon is arguing against the wrong position...I would like to know if it is the method of paying reparations that he disagrees with i.e., 'the big check' concept or the whole concept of Blacks receiving ANY form of special consideration and restitution for past wrongs.

As far as 'reparations' goes, I agree...it won't be (nor should it be) some big ole check for each individual...

It should be (IMO) a big ole check for black folk 'collectively'.

The black community is in dire need of educational considerations (in the form of better schools in blk communities), as well as jobs & housing (& any other endeavor that would uplift)....'that's' where the money should go, IMO, toward improvement/betterment of our communities...

and then there's providing a safe haven for our children, as opposed to them hanging out in the streets becoming a statistic or recruited by gang members.

The problem with Xeon is

he plays 'Devil's Advocate' even when black folk are murdered or abused or treated unfairly & unjustly by those in positions of authority.

He's 'Devil Advocate' when young black ppl are treated harshly by the justice system or any system.

In fact, he is ALWAYS 'Devil Advocate' when it comes to anything negative about black ppl., or anything that would benefit the black community.

You can count on Xeon to be on the 'white' side of any 'black' issue.

He supports his white brethren...

That's what he does.

He's like a stromfront member.

quote:

Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
They just can't help it.

THAT'S WHAT I SAAAAID!!!

THAT'S WHAT I SAAAAID!!!!

PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

However, I would be interested in knowing what other proponents of reparations consider to be proper compensation for Blacks. Perhaps there are those like myself who have a much broader view regarding what reparations are and who like myself don't limit it simply to a 'check'. If this is the case then Xeon is arguing against the wrong position...I would like to know if it is the method of paying reparations that he disagrees with i.e., 'the big check' concept or the whole concept of Blacks receiving ANY form of special consideration and restitution for past wrongs.

Not really sure where I stand on the issue, but my question/comment is, what good would the repatriations do if the people that are giving such are of the same mind set? Isn't this the same group that has broken every promise they have ever made to any group and changed the standards/rules to keep them in power and ahead of the game? Why would any form of repatriations be different than their past "words"?

quote:

Originally posted by Fabulous:
As far as 'reparations' goes, I agree...it won't be (nor should it be) some big ole check for each individual...

It should be (IMO) a big ole check for black folk 'collectively'.

The black community is in dire need of educational considerations (in the form of better schools in blk communities), as well as jobs & housing (& any other endeavor that would uplift)....'that's' where the money should go, IMO, toward improvement/betterment of our communities...

and then there's providing a safe haven for our children, as opposed to them hanging out in the streets becoming a statistic or recruited by gang members.

The problem with Xeon is

he plays 'Devil's Advocate' even when black folk are murdered or abused or treated unfairly & unjustly by those in positions of authority.

He's 'Devil Advocate' when young black ppl are treated harshly by the justice system or any system.

In fact, he is ALWAYS 'Devil Advocate' when it comes to anything negative about black ppl., or anything that would benefit the black community.

You can count on Xeon to be on the 'white' side of any 'black' issue.

He supports his white brethren...

That's what he does.

He's like a stromfront member.

It is my position that true reparations should not come in a monetary form denominated in the U.S. dollar at all...whether it be to individuals or us as a collective. There are a whole host of reasons that support this position not the least of which I will be covering in the A.B.O.S.E.R.T. thread as I further break down the true value of this currency we are using. In the meantime I am going to put it to you like this...My rationale for supporting reparations is not born out of some desire to 'come up' off the unpaid labor of those long dead ancestors who worked from can't see in the morning to can't see at night which laid the foundation for this country to be built. This is not a case of trying to capitalize off someone else's mistreatment or some get rich quick scheme (personally I'm doing quite well financially so that's not what this is about for me). What this is about is the maldistribution of wealth and resources which have been forcibly and systematically withheld from us for 400 years. To me the concept of reparations is just the impetus or the 'crack in the dam' if you will...that provides the issue in which we can coalesce around in order to free up the wealth and resources that have been walled up from us for centuries.


The fact of the matter is that NO descendant of slaves imported into this country as chattle (No matter what their current socioeconomic lot in life is) should be against reparations. There are only two reasons why a Black person of today would be against reparations... 1) They simply don't understand the degree to which this country has benefited (to a large degree still benefits) from the wholesale exploitation of Blacks...neither do they understand the degree to which wealth has been systematically skewed out of the hands and reach of most Blacks...So consequently they feel that reparations are unnecessary because at this point all Blacks have to do is work hard, save and invest so they can reach parity with any other group therefore they feel reparations will only disable us and hurt our work ethic...while this is a noble ideology it's simply not based on the reality of the situation. 2) They have completely disavowed themselves from any real connection to Blacks in general... either due to buying into the superstructure of white racism against blacks, internalizing the all too familiar instances of black originated self hate due to feelings of inferiority....or both. As a consequence of this they only see themselves as INDIVIDUALS who just so happen to be black not as parts of a larger collective. Therefore they take a contrarian view to Black causes simply because...well... they are Black causes. They feel themselves to be individuals only after all so the best way to display this is to whenever possible rebel against the group in which they are most associated with...similar to how a child rebels against ANYTHING their parents say just because it's their parents who are saying it during adolescence.

Even though the consensus is that someone with Xeon's views is always doing so because of reason 2) or that they are simply stormfront members...I'm going to address the contingent of Blacks who fall under reason 1). Because at the end of the day they simply just don't understand the nature of the situation so it's my responsibility as someone who does to help them...that is if they accept the truth. The bottom line is reparations should not be viewed through the prism of whats going on now...I believe that there are a series of converging forces at work as we speak that will make reparations look less like a "pipe dream" and more like a necessary means of survival.

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Originally posted by ocatchings:

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However, I would be interested in knowing what other proponents of reparations consider to be proper compensation for Blacks. Perhaps there are those like myself who have a much broader view regarding what reparations are and who like myself don't limit it simply to a 'check'. If this is the case then Xeon is arguing against the wrong position...I would like to know if it is the method of paying reparations that he disagrees with i.e., 'the big check' concept or the whole concept of Blacks receiving ANY form of special consideration and restitution for past wrongs.

Not really sure where I stand on the issue, but my question/comment is, what good would the repatriations do if the people that are giving such are of the same mind set? Isn't this the same group that has broken every promise they have ever made to any group and changed the standards/rules to keep them in power and ahead of the game? Why would any form of repatriations be different than their past "words"?

Depending on whether you truly meant "repatriations" as spelled in your reply or reparations as discussed in this topic my answer to your inquiry would be quite different...however I'm going to respond to you with the understanding that you meant to say reparations if this is not correct you can let me know. Regarding your concern that the group "giving" reparations are of the mindset of not keeping whatever agreements are made. The first thing that needs to change is this notion that they are "giving" us anything...Blacks should not even approach this with that mentality...The mentality that Blacks should approach this with is that of a man who has finally confronted a THIEF who has STOLEN his (or his parents) possessions. That is to say approach the situation based on the fact you are taking back whats OWED to you not like you are trying to get some type of 'hand out'.

The socioeconomic circumstances that will erupt in this country over the next 5-10 years are going to be such that the sheer prospect of 40 million disenfranchised, disgruntled and galvanized black folk (motivated by a severe drop in their current standard of living) potentially creating civil unrest will insure that whatever agreements are made will be honored.

quote:

Depending on whether you truly meant "repatriations" as spelled in your reply or reparations as discussed in this topic my answer to your inquiry would be quite different...however I'm going to respond to you with the understanding that you meant to say reparations if this is not correct you can let me know.

Yes I did mean "reparations", sorry about that.

I understand your answer and I will need some time to digest it and think about it, but the first thing that comes to mind is how do we calculate what is owed?

quote:

Yes I did mean "reparations", sorry about that.

I understand your answer and I will need some time to digest it and think about it, but the first thing that comes to mind is how do we calculate what is owed?

In terms of calculating what is owed for starters we need to get out of this mindset of just thinking in terms of dollars and cents. We need to begin thinking in terms of what was the Net Impact of being stripped of everything that could have made us a viable people over the past nearly 400 years and seek ways to replenish that. This should not be limited to just some cash payout because "cash" is not what we were stripped of. We were stripped of our very autonomy and viability as a people you can't really put a monetary price on that (especially by using a fiat debt instrument like the U.S. dollar to calculate it) What you can do however (as a unified special interest bloc) is charge that nation in an international forum with the biggest crime against humanity ever committed and seek restitution which makes us whole.

Of course the circumstances that will become the catalyst for these actions on our part have not manifested themselves yet...However, if all the data and socioeconomic shifts which point to the U.S. becoming a much more conservative country are correct...Then Blacks are going to ultimately be pushed into a corner that will force us to form a united front while using reparations as our central issue. If one thing can be learned from Obama's presidency it's how well received he is around the world... this lets me know that there is a huge desire around the world to see non Anglos in positions of power....To them this represents a decline in the arrogance and intrusiveness which the U.S. has displayed over the years...even if this shift in the power structure is merely symbolic (as is the case with Obama's presidency) the fact remains that the world is hungry to see a decline in Anglo American dominance and a rise in non Anglo power and would likely support Blacks if they truly began to seek their God given rights. Which in the coming years we will be increasingly forced to do, if you think the anti black sentiment in this country as expressed by some of these protests against Obama is bad now...Just wait until this economy gets even worse (and it will) you haven't seen anything yet.

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As far as 'reparations' goes, I agree...it won't be (nor should it be) some big ole check for each individual...

Ya got that right. Sadly, there are delusional Negroes who actually believe this will and should happen.

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It should be (IMO) a big ole check for black folk 'collectively'.

Yeah, right…..How about some shrimp and champagne to go with it……?

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….and then there's providing a safe haven for our children, as opposed to them hanging out in the streets becoming a statistic or recruited by gang members. [quote]

That’s totally up to the parents and the community to provide such an environment. It has nothing to do with the government or a fantasy check.

[quote]The problem with Xeon is he plays 'Devil's Advocate' even when black folk are murdered or abused or treated unfairly & unjustly by those in positions of authority.

Sorry, but I have no need to play any kind of advocate. I just tell it like it is which may not be how Negroes necessarily want to hear it. Big difference. And for all those murdered and abused black folks you are upset about -you do realize another Negro murdered, raped, assaulted, sold them drugs, car jacked, home invaded and did a drive by that resulted in homicide or wounding of an innocent black person or child. You’re aware of this, correct? It’s a matter of documented fact and public record……

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He's 'Devil Advocate' when young black ppl are treated harshly by the justice system or any system

.

Unlike you, I have no sympathy for hardened thugs and career criminals who willingly victimize other black people (or non-black, don’t matter to me –I don’t condone criminality). Don’t want anything to do with the justice system? Don’t pick up a gun, assault someone, traffic and sale drugs. It’s a choice you make. But my heart goes out to anyone (regardless of race) who is unfairly or unjustly victimized by the police or justice system. I’m going on record to say this, so don’t attempt to falsely accuse me of being insensitive to police brutality or anyone unfairly convicted of a crime.

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In fact, he is ALWAYS 'Devil Advocate' when it comes to anything negative about black ppl., or anything that would benefit the black community.

Oh really? And you have proof of this? Uh huh…..There ya have it…….I thought so…….

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You can count on Xeon to be on the 'white' side of any 'black' issue.

White side? Uh huh…Is that the side that speaks against nihilistic self destructive behavior, black on black crime, intolerant of excuse making for bad behavior and rejects whiny victimization and farcical entitlement demands? Ok…….I guess……

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…..but I wouldn't exactly call this discussion and others like it "worthless". Notwithstanding Xeon's usual display of pseudo intellectual snobbery....

Pseudo intellectual snobbery? No need to comment…..Next……

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….which contains all the racial integrity of a smiling/shining caricature of a black man... such as can be found on a box of cream of wheat.

Yep. Just as all the tired excuse making and victimization coonery culture is just as handicapping and damaging to black people as racism and discrimination. Both are equal cancers against black advancement. You are aware of this, correct?

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There is however indeed some value that can be found in these types of discussions.... in that it helps Blacks to start thinking along the lines of being compensated for past wrongs that were done to them.

Compensated? Compensated for what?? Being a member of a group that was once enslaved 150 years ago? Yeah, right, and while your getting compensated, don’t forget to ask for Bentley to drive you to the bank when you cash your reparations check….

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Now at the very least I feel that Xeon serves a good purpose in his role of playing 'Devil's Advocate' (although I'm sure he sternly believes what he says) and he is raising issues that anyone who is truly serious about reparations should address. [quote]

Not trying to play the devils advocate my friend and yes, I believe every word I write……

[quote]For example he has stated that Blacks won't get some 'big ole' check' nor should they...I happen to agree with that.

Thank you. Now if we could only give these other delusional reparations fantasy Negroes a reality check…..

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If this is the case then Xeon is arguing against the wrong position...I would like to know if it is the method of paying reparations that he disagrees with i.e., 'the big check' concept or the whole concept of Blacks receiving ANY form of special consideration and restitution for past wrongs.

I don’t believe anyone should get anything they are not entitled to. It’s that simple. If you can find any former slaves who are alive, by all means, they should be compensated for their enslavement. But since there are none, case closed. You weren’t a slave and it’s highly unlikely you know anyone who was a slave. So why are you expecting a check (or whatever) for the suffering of someone (that you don’t know personally) that happened 150 years ago? What? Just because you have black skin? That qualifies you? That’s all you need??? I don’t think so……I have no idea how many times I have to say this.

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Originally posted by Xeon:

) includes lies written by John Hope Franklin …



That should end all speculation about the absolute worthlessness of this cause...in case there was any...

What's the going rate on validation from a spambot anyway?

Let me explain something. It was suggested that the history I read is no more than lies written by white historians. The history I read is written by both white and black historians and none have a history of fabrications or lies. John Hope Franklin was one of the black historians I mentioned that I have read. He also happens to be a personal hero of mine. I have read his autobiography and a number of his other works. Since I was accused of believing historical lies and I read black historians, according to the hater, they must be lying also. That was my point.

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Originally posted by Xeon:

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…..but I wouldn't exactly call this discussion and others like it "worthless". Notwithstanding Xeon's usual display of pseudo intellectual snobbery....

Pseudo intellectual snobbery? No need to comment…..Next……

Agreed there really is no need to comment much on that which is self evident....

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….which contains all the racial integrity of a smiling/shining caricature of a black man... such as can be found on a box of cream of wheat.

Yep. Just as all the tired excuse making and victimization coonery culture is just as handicapping and damaging to black people as racism and discrimination. Both are equal cancers against black advancement. You are aware of this, correct?[/QUOTE]

I believe you have a few things twisted pal, acknowledging the race based socioeconomic and institutional barricades that have been levied against Blacks in this country and seeking ways to break them down and fairly redistribute resources into Black hands is far from "excuse making" or "victimization". With respect to what is really "coonery culture" well lets be clear... the very definition/essence of a coon is one is that is so content with his perceived position of inferiority to whites that he see's no need to even try to rebalance any disparity that exists between him and whites. In fact he will even go so far as to try to discourage other Blacks from seeking ways to balance these disparities...such as those instances in our history during slavery when Blacks would begin to formulate plans to gain freedom there was always at least one slave in the mist saying things like "It just won't work we will never gets freedom" or "why we's got to be tryin' to leave ain't we got it good where we at?"

Now given this reality and putting this into it's proper context which position has historically held us back the most that "handicapped" and "damaged" us?...those instances when Blacks fought to change their current disadvantaged position or those instances when they were discouraged or thwarted by those among them who were satisfied with the status quo? Then ask yourself where do your statements..."it is not going to happen…..PERIOD." or "IT AIN’T HAPPNIN’!!!" fit into the overall scheme of things as it relates to the history of coonery?...You can avoid commenting on this also as once again this should be self evident.

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There is however indeed some value that can be found in these types of discussions.... in that it helps Blacks to start thinking along the lines of being compensated for past wrongs that were done to them.

Compensated? Compensated for what?? Being a member of a group that was once enslaved 150 years ago? Yeah, right, and while your getting compensated, don’t forget to ask for Bentley to drive you to the bank when you cash your reparations check….[/QUOTE]

This is part and parcel of the overall problem with your position... you are acting as if slavery existed in a vacuum and once it officially 'ended' 150 years ago (not really a long time historically speaking) that Blacks were free to function as equal citizens and that their rights were hence forth and forever protected under the constitution or something. I guess you know nothing of the past 150 years AFTER slavery ended which included countless lynchings, pogroms, burnings, forced Sharecropping, total destruction of black towns such as Rosewood and the Greenwood community of Tulsa (Black Wall street) countless instances of using a legal framework to cheat Blacks out of their families land (yes I know of instances like this in my own family so there goes your theory that this was too long ago to touch us directly) using a legal framework to prevent blacks from owning businesses to compete with whites, erecting institutional barriers that have reduced and maintained Black group wealth accumulation to a mere .05% of the nation which is disproportionate to their numerical 14% of the population...just to name a few. So these are the types of things Blacks need to seek compensation for to answer your question buddy...not just the institution of slavery which as you said official 'ended' 150 years ago...because in case you hadn't noticed a whole helluva lot has happened to Blacks in the 150 years since we got our 'freedom'.

By the way, spare me the trite talk about shiny trinkets such as a "Bentley" and a "reparations check" it should be abundantly clear to even the most feeble of brains that I am talking of things of much more substance than that. However, if you cannot see beyond such trivialities then perhaps I have overestimated the mental faculties you possess to process/compute what I'm saying...which is ironic considering you named yourself after a Pentium chip.

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Now at the very least I feel that Xeon serves a good purpose in his role of playing 'Devil's Advocate' (although I'm sure he sternly believes what he says) and he is raising issues that anyone who is truly serious about reparations should address.

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Not trying to play the devils advocate my friend and yes, I believe every word I write……

Maybe you're not trying to play devils advocate...but nothing says advocate for the devil like wanting to maintain a status quo that places him in a superior position to yourself....and not being willing to explore ways to correct such an imbalance. The fact that you believe every word you write shows me that it's not the case that you are intentionally trying to mislead people... you are just misguided yourself and need to be put on the right path... that's where I come in.

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For example he has stated that Blacks won't get some 'big ole' check' nor should they...I happen to agree with that.

Thank you. Now if we could only give these other delusional reparations fantasy Negroes a reality check…..

Not so fast sporty, don't pat yourself on the back too hard... remember I only agree with you based on the method of payment not being just some 'check' but I am an advocate for a true correction of the socioeconomic imbalance that exists between Blacks and whites... some can call that reparations I really don't care what you call it as long as the effect is the same. Aside from your opposition to Blacks receiving some big ole' check where do you fall on the issue of true wealth distribution?...try to avoid giving me the same tired line about Blacks only needing to work harder and save more because as I've illustrated the wealth distribution mechanisms in this country have been systematically skewed away from Blacks...so what else you got?

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If this is the case then Xeon is arguing against the wrong position...I would like to know if it is the method of paying reparations that he disagrees with i.e., 'the big check' concept or the whole concept of Blacks receiving ANY form of special consideration and restitution for past wrongs.

I don’t believe anyone should get anything they are not entitled to. It’s that simple. If you can find any former slaves who are alive, by all means, they should be compensated for their enslavement. But since there are none, case closed. You weren’t a slave and it’s highly unlikely you know anyone who was a slave. So why are you expecting a check (or whatever) for the suffering of someone (that you don’t know personally) that happened 150 years ago? What? Just because you have black skin? That qualifies you? That’s all you need??? I don’t think so……I have no idea how many times I have to say this.[/QUOTE]

Indeed no one should get anything they are not entitled to...so let me ask you this do you believe that whites are entitled to over 400 years of your ancestors unpaid labor (assuming you are Black) using such labor to build a civilization in which you the descendant can not partake equally...in the form of a fair distribution of the wealth that was generated by this labor? Do you feel whites are entitled to being the beneficiaries of not only just the wealth that their ancestors produced but also the wealth that your ancestors produced? The last time I checked I don't see whites or any other people for that matter (besides negroes disconnected from their heritage) creating a barrier between them and their ancestors.... they don't have a problem with receiving wealth passed down from generations of people (that they don't know personally) in fact they feel it is their BIRTHRIGHT....if they became aware that any amount of wealth that was due to them from there ancestors was in any way misdirected and skewed away from them they would use every mechanism at their disposal (as a GROUP) to correct such imbalance...happy go lucky, lackadaisical, status quo loving negroes however...not so much.

Although you mark my words in the coming years this current way of thinking which is predominate among blacks now will be a luxury that they will no longer be able to afford... circumstance will dictate that they seek those God given rights they should have been looking for as a GROUP to begin with.... they will finally cut out all this individualistic b.s. once and for all.

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I don’t believe anyone should get anything they are not entitled to. It’s that simple. If you can find any former slaves who are alive, by all means, they should be compensated for their enslavement. But since there are none, case closed. You weren’t a slave and it’s highly unlikely you know anyone who was a slave. So why are you expecting a check (or whatever) for the suffering of someone (that you don’t know personally) that happened 150 years ago? What? Just because you have black skin? That qualifies you? That’s all you need??? I don’t think so……I have no idea how many times I have to say this.

Indeed no one should get anything they are not entitled to...so let me ask you this do you believe that whites are entitled to over 400 years of your ancestors unpaid labor (assuming you are Black) using such labor to build a civilization in which you the descendant can not partake equally...in the form of a fair distribution of the wealth that was generated by this labor? Do you feel whites are entitled to being the beneficiaries of not only just the wealth that their ancestors produced but also the wealth that your ancestors produced? The last time I checked I don't see whites or any other people for that matter (besides negroes disconnected from their heritage) creating a barrier between them and their ancestors.... they don't have a problem with receiving wealth passed down from generations of people (that they don't know personally) in fact they feel it is their BIRTHRIGHT....if they became aware that any amount of wealth that was due to them from there ancestors was in any way misdirected and skewed away from them they would use every mechanism at their disposal (as a GROUP) to correct such imbalance...happy go lucky, lackadaisical, status quo loving negroes however...not so much.

Although you mark my words in the coming years this current way of thinking which is predominate among blacks now will be a luxury that they will no longer be able to afford... circumstance will dictate that they seek those God given rights they should have been looking for as a GROUP to begin with.... they will finally cut out all this individualistic b.s. once and for all.[/quote]



Great post

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Agreed there really is no need to comment much on that which is self evident....

Thank you. Even in heated disagreement, we both agree such a silly inaccurate accusation (pseudo intellectual snobbery) is self evident and not worthy of commenting……

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I believe you have a few things twisted pal, acknowledging the race based socioeconomic and institutional barricades that have been levied against Blacks in this country and seeking ways to break them down and fairly redistribute resources into Black hands is far from "excuse making" or "victimization".

No, it is not I who has this twisted my friend. I never said racism did not exist or that it was never an historical barrier to black acquisition to socio-economic parity. My position is that I do not agree with excuse making and rationalization for black poor personal decision (e.g. Michael Eric Dyson) making that leads to self inflicted adversity and problems. I also do not buy into the self intoxicating myth of the helpless black victim who has no control over their lives and have to be pitied and given special considerations when other blacks in identical situations, work, go to school, sacrifice, avoid the lure of criminality, take advantage of available resources and opportunities, plan for the long term, avoid the thug life and the cancerous baby mama drama. And for the record -the majority of black Americans are the aforementioned. It’s just the loud-whiny-you owe me something-obnoxious-self anointed-victimization-Negroes who I disagree with…..

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With respect to what is really "coonery culture" well lets be clear... the very definition/essence of a coon is one is that is so content with his perceived position of inferiority to whites that he see's no need to even try to rebalance any disparity that exists between him and whites.

And there ya have it! Agreed. It’s that type of victimization entitlement thinking (coonery culture) that is worse than racism. Sadly, it is the same mindset that seems to be trendy and acceptable. And it flies in the face of a noble history of people who did not see themselves as helpless incontinent victims, believing someone owed them a check simply because they were black (riding on the coattails of historical injustices). Historically, black people only wanted fair and equal access and an end to the humiliations of segregation and racial discrimination. Big difference….

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Then ask yourself where do your statements..."it is not going to happen…..PERIOD." or "IT AIN’T HAPPNIN’!!!" fit into the overall scheme of things as it relates to the history of coonery?...You can avoid commenting on this also as once again this should be self evident.

My point is this bro D, this laughable fantasy that you are going to get a reparations check (or whatever since you or no one else has given a definitive detailed listing of something other than a check) for something that happened 150 years ago is not going to happen. Once again, for the fourth or fifth time, the government (if that is who you are looking to) is not going to give you a “for black folks only” check. What part of this do you not understand? What is it that you do understand and do not want to except? No….Tell ya what. When it happens (don’t hold your breath!), please post a thread entitled -See! I told you so!!! You were wrong!! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

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This is part and parcel of the overall problem with your position... you are acting as if slavery existed in a vacuum and once it officially 'ended' 150 years ago (not really a long time historically speaking) that Blacks were free to function as equal citizens and that their rights were hence forth and forever protected under the constitution or something.

No….I have never thought nor written such. I am very aware of the evils and inhumane treatment black Americans endured under Jim Crow, segregation, lynching and racial discrimination. All of this is historically documented and cannot be denied. I never suggested blacks were treated fairly after the Emancipation of Proclamation. Slavery was now an illegal institution and no longer sanctioned under law. But racism was still alive and very pervasive and crippling to the well being of black people. And racism still exists although no where near the level it was in 1865, 1900, 1950 or 1970. Just look at the race hysteria by the Town Hall Brown Shirts and the hypocritical racial fear mongering Republicans (Rusty DePass., Sherry Goforth, Michele Bachmann, Rush Limbuagh, Carol Carter, et al).

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I guess you know nothing of the past 150 years AFTER slavery ended which included countless lynchings, pogroms, burnings, forced Sharecropping, total destruction of black towns such as Rosewood and the Greenwood community of Tulsa (Black Wall street) countless instances of using a………….05% of the nation which is disproportionate to their numerical 14% of the population...just to name a few.

I just addressed all of this. Once again –none of this is in dispute nor is it being historically contested by me. Next…..

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So these are the types of things Blacks need to seek compensation for to answer your question buddy...not just the institution of slavery which as you said official 'ended' 150 years ago...because in case you hadn't noticed a whole helluva lot has happened to Blacks in the 150 years since we got our 'freedom'.

Sigh…..Ya know, once again, the history of racism and all its grotesque trappings is not being denied nor questioned…..PERIOD! I have no idea why you keep bringing it up. Those legally and socially sanctioned massive abuses are no longer occurring. And as I said before -that is not a refutation that racism does not still exist. But as I stated in a pervious post, no one is going to stop a black person from achieving nor attempting to achieve what he or she wants in life. You are free to choose any lifestyle or profession you want to. Our parents and grand parents did not necessarily have this option. And a history of discrimination and denial is not only restricted to black people. No need to detail this since they (over weigh people, women, handicapped, other minorities, etc) would be entitled to compensation also. I explained this before so I’m not going to repeat it again. Simply stating that you are a member of group that suffered past injustices does not legally entitle you to anything. If you cannot prove that you have personally suffered racial discrimination, well, you going to have a difficult time getting compensation for someone else’s suffering in a court of law. I can’t explain it any simpler than that……

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By the way, spare me the trite talk about shiny trinkets such as a "Bentley" and a "reparations check" it should be abundantly clear to even the most feeble of brains that I am talking of things of much more substance than that. However, if you cannot see beyond such trivialities then perhaps I have overestimated the mental faculties you possess to process/compute what I'm saying...which is ironic considering you named yourself after a Pentium chip.

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! That’s funny. Not trying to trivialize a history of discrimination and racism my friend. I’m simply stating that this simpleminded entitlement con game you have embraced is flawed and is never going to see the light of day. Perhaps it is you that is lacking the gray matter to comprehend the obvious and grasp the reality of what you are entitled to and what you are not. And yes, the moniker is after a Pentium chip since this is the only Pentium box I built. I’m an AMD man and I thought I would try the Pentium chip for a change. Works good. Next…..

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Maybe you're not trying to play devils advocate...but nothing says advocate for the devil like wanting to maintain a status quo that places him in a superior position to yourself....and not being willing to explore ways to correct such an imbalance. The fact that you believe every word you write shows me that it's not the case that you are intentionally trying to mislead people...

Mislead people? Intentionally mislead them how? How am I misleading anyone? Have I told any lies? Have I stated something that did not exist? Where is the duplicity? Details please….

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…..you are just misguided yourself and need to be put on the right path... that's where I come in.

I’m misguided? Oh really? And just how am I misguided? Because I don’t accept self destructive behavior and the self serving nefarious politics of victimization and entitlement? Misguided because I don’t buy into the obtuse scam of pontificating about a check (or whatever else it is that you think you deserve) based on the suffering of others 150 years ago? And you say that’s were you come in??? Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Now that’s really funny…..

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Not so fast sporty, don't pat yourself on the back too hard... remember I only agree with you based on the method of payment not being just some 'check' but I am an advocate for a true correction of the socioeconomic imbalance that exists between Blacks and whites...

Oh? And exactly what do you propose? List the details please. Oh yeah, one more thing, exactly where is the “money” (if that is what you seek) going to come from? Exactly who and what will be responsible for your reparations relief fund? Who will administer it? Who qualifies and who does not? Again, please answer all the questions and list the details. I would like to hear everything you have to say….

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some can call that reparations I really don't care what you call it as long as the effect is the same. Aside from your opposition to Blacks receiving some big ole' check where do you fall on the issue of true wealth distribution?...try to avoid giving me the same tired line about Blacks only needing to work harder and save more because as I've illustrated the wealth distribution mechanisms in this country have been systematically skewed away from Blacks...

So your issue is “wealth distribution”? Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Wow! You really don’t get it do you? Get in line bro…!!!! First of all, yes, the major wealth in this country is held by what -about 5% of the general population? So what do you propose? Taking their money away and redistributing it to those who make less than $25,000 a year? In case you didn’t know it my friend, we live in a free market and capitalist country. What you make is what you keep (after the IRS…). You don’t owe anyone anything. You obviously are unaware of self made rich people (black, white, Asian, etc) who came from marginal, humble and undistinguished backgrounds. No one gave them anything! They worked for what they got. You are free to make your own wealth (you didn’t know that???). And if you haven’t noticed, there is a generation of young blacks in the rap industry who have done just that. You also have blacks who have made fortunes in sports, investments, education and promotions and self made entrepreneurship who have made very lucrative incomes. Who stopped them?

Secondly, most Americans are not on the receiving end of wealth. You forgot (selectively) about millions and millions of working class and poor people of all races who are not connected to the Vanderbilt’s, Rockefellers, Buffett’s, Walton’s or Adelson’s. They labor in obscurity, trying desperately to keep their homes and jobs. We do not live in a country where what you have is expected to be had by everyone else. And no one is stopping any black person from attaining wealth. What state or federal law prohibits it? What black person was on the verge of making a fortune only to denied for racial reasons? Got any examples? Answer the questions….. Finally, want a lot of money? Good… Go make your own!

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…so what else you got?

Look above. You just read it. Next……

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Indeed no one should get anything they are not entitled to...so let me ask you this do you believe that whites are entitled to over 400 years of your ancestors unpaid labor (assuming you are Black) using such labor to build a civilization in which you the descendant can not partake equally...in the form of a fair distribution of the wealth that was generated by this labor? Do you feel whites are entitled to being the beneficiaries of not only just the wealth that their ancestors produced but also the wealth that your ancestors produced?

Wow! Uhhhhh…I had to read this twice and I still can’t believe you are so ignorant of history. And I say that not to be offensive nor disrespectful to you but to the incredulous mythical propaganda you wrote (and believe). First of all, the overwhelming number of white Americans had nothing to do with slavery. They were not recipients of the wealth it generated. Most white Americans were indifferent and did not care one way or another. The class that benefited from slavery was destroyed after the Civil war. You seem to have forgotten that the South was totally bankrupt and prostrate, its farms, rail ways and factories in ruins and communities burned to the grown. The South looked like Germany or Poland in 1945. Whites Southerners were impoverished, disheveled and in disarray when the war ended. There was no longer an aristocratic class of wealthy white Southerners sitting on the porches of their mansions as you have been lead to believe. The South had to be rebuilt after the massive destruction and scorched earth policies of the Union Armies. The class of people you point your finger at (white slave owners who benefited from slavery) no longer existed. Even Andrew Johnson (who was white supremacist), the succeeding president after Lincolns assassination, hated the aristocratic wealthy class of slave owners and was delighted at their demise.

Secondly, your belief that all whites benefited form slavery is for the most part, completely erroneous. It’s like saying all black people are benefiting from the fortunes of wealthy rappers, famous black athletes or Oprah Winfrey. Almost half of white Americans are descendents of European immigrants that came to this country “after the slavery”. What about them? Are they part of the “you owe us too” for the fortunes of wealthy white Southern slave owners? Where do you draw the line? And exactly how did they benefit? They never received a slavery check or a free slave because they were white. And I say this not do defend slavery or the racists who enslaved black people. I’m simply stating documented historical facts that may contradict the emotional lather you get worked up about. And yes, I am very aware of the brutal oppression of the Black Codes, lynching, wanton violence, beatings, Jim Crow laws and forced segregation that blacks endured following the post Reconstruction period (after Rutherford Hayes worked a deal to get those 20 electoral votes and subsequently withdrew federal troops in 1877, thus enabling Southern whites to regain complete power once again). But regardless, even though the treatment of blacks was ugly and inhumane, simply having white skin did not entitle the majority of whites to the fortunes of slavery.

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The last time I checked I don't see whites or any other people for that matter (besides negroes disconnected from their heritage) creating a barrier between them and their ancestors....

Agreed. But I personally, don’t know of anyone doing such a thing. One more thing, did you kow that blacks from the West Indies/Carreibean and Africa are some of the harshest critics of the alleged “lazy-want something for nothing-American Negroes”? Did you also know this negative perception is wide spread among other non-white minorities? Are you aware of this?

My neighbor told me earlier today, two Haitians told her if black Americans spent as much time trying to make education a priority for their children, as they do constantly whining and complaining, they would not face the problems they do. She said they also criticized American blacks for failing to match the academic and scholastic standards that Asians and other non-white immigrants did (their words –not mine). Their point was American Negroes face numerous problems that only they can address and solve. The indifference or acceptance of criminality (why is going to jail an accepted rite of passage for young black males?) and an almost ¾ black illegitimacy rate (unprecedented in the modern world!) has nothing to do with white racism! Only American Negroes can affect the changes necessary to correct this self mutilating cultural trend.

And a friend of mine who was in the military, recently married an African woman (initially it was one of those Green Card arrangements but later turned into a real emotional relationship) and they had a very interesting conversation. According to him, she told him that there should be no welfare….period! She said that all the things you (black Americans) need are here and black Americans were lazy and were not as aggressive (as a group) and ambitious as other blacks (e.g. Africans, blacks from the West Indies/Caribbean, etc). She said, “Were I come from, there are no hand outs. If you want something, you have to work for it and get it yourself. Black people here are lazy!”. She also told him Negroes love the “niggerdom” world. When he pressed her for an explanation, she said, “When black people constantly call each other “niggers” in front of white people and world, what else is it? They get no respect because they don’t respect themselves” (ouch!). Harsh words from a fellow black person observing black Americans. Just curious, what’s your spin on such views held by non-American blacks?

Xeon, there are those on this site who have written you off as being nothing more than a "storm fronter" or "spambot" and therefore don't deem it fruitful to engage in a dialog with you. I on the other hand am going to take a different approach... not because I don't think it's possible that they are right about you (they might be who knows?) or because I'm trying to convince you to personally adopt my point of view. I do this because I'm well aware that there are those who are reading these posts that may be sympathetic to the concept of reparations...but due to the issues you've raised they may begin to only see it as a "pipe dream" instead of the viable tool to help advance Blacks that it is. Or they may disagree with you but not be able to properly expose the fallacies in your statements... so I do this for them. This is the reason why I'm willing to take time out of my Sunday to do this...So having said that lets get started...

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Originally posted by Xeon:

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Agreed there really is no need to comment much on that which is self evident....

Thank you. Even in heated disagreement, we both agree such a silly inaccurate accusation (pseudo intellectual snobbery) is self evident and not worthy of commenting……

Actually, the only thing that is silly about it is your inability/unwillingness to see the accuracy of my accusation....although this does not surprise me and is really just par for the course... but again this is self evident (only not to you) so there really is no need to go in circles about it as I'm sure we can both do all day...So lets just stick to the issue...

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I believe you have a few things twisted pal, acknowledging the race based socioeconomic and institutional barricades that have been levied against Blacks in this country and seeking ways to break them down and fairly redistribute resources into Black hands is far from "excuse making" or "victimization".

No, it is not I who has this twisted my friend. I never said racism did not exist or that it was never an historical barrier to black acquisition to socio-economic parity. My position is that I do not agree with excuse making and rationalization for black poor personal decision (e.g. Michael Eric Dyson) making that leads to self inflicted adversity and problems. I also do not buy into the self intoxicating myth of the helpless black victim who has no control over their lives and have to be pitied and given special considerations when other blacks in identical situations, work, go to school, sacrifice, avoid the lure of criminality, take advantage of available resources and opportunities, plan for the long term, avoid the thug life and the cancerous baby mama drama. And for the record -the majority of black Americans are the aforementioned. It’s just the loud-whiny-you owe me something-obnoxious-self anointed-victimization-Negroes who I disagree with…..[/QUOTE]

I think you're barking up the wrong tree here kid...since what I am referring to with regard to acknowledging the race based socioeconomic and institutional barricades against Blacks as a GROUP has nothing to do with your personal pet peeve against the Michael Eric Dyson types who rationalize the poor decisions that some INDIVIDUAL blacks are making. Personally, I'm one of the biggest critics of the self inflicted damage that blacks do to themselves such as Black on Black crime, tolerating a subculture that glorifies the worst aspects of human behavior, economic irresponsibility (not the least of which is the collective failure to lobby for the resources that were withheld from them historically in order to help build their OWN communities and industries instead of simply just wanting to integrate with whites...hence my disagreement with your position)

I also don't believe in the "self intoxicating myth of the helpless black victim" but the difference between you and me is that I don't just limit it to blacks as INDIVIDUALS surviving within the limits of a Euro-centric socioeconomic construct. I extrapolate this belief regarding our abilities to us as a GROUP and I am a stern believer that Blacks in this country could function as a viable unified GROUP instead of just being a collection of wayward individuals just looking to "get by" or "get over" within a system that they neither own or control. What you don't seem to realize is that our views are not mutually exclusive... one can be a champion for Black personal responsibility while simultaneously being a champion of special consideration for the purpose of Black GROUP advancement. I'm living proof of this... as I am one of those Blacks that you just mentioned who "works, went to school, sacrificed, avoided the lure of criminality, took advantage of available resources and opportunities, planned for the long term, avoided the thug life and the cancerous baby mama drama." I also have many friends and family who did the same... yet when I look around I still see a socioeconomic construct in place that does not keep blacks in place collectively in a de jure way (such as with Jim crow laws in the past) it is done in a de facto way meaning convincing the populace (including Blacks themselves) that what we see regarding our socioeconomic disparities is "normal" and just a function of being citizens in a free market system....more on this later.

Oh and concerning the last point you made when you stated that " the majority of black Americans are the aforementioned" meaning those who have played by the rules and are not the "loud-whiny-you owe me something-obnoxious-self anointed-victimization-Negroes" that you disagree with..Then the question becomes so what the problem is???? If by your own admission most Blacks are...

"workings, going to school, sacrificing, avoiding the lure of criminality, taking advantage of available resources and opportunities, planning for the long term, avoiding the thug life and the cancerous baby mama drama".

Yet they STILL suffer from the highest rates of unemployment as a GROUP, they STILL suffer from lowest amount of household and individual wealth as a GROUP, they STILL suffer from owning the least amount of businesses as a GROUP, they still suffer the most unfair treatment within the criminal justice system as a GROUP... they STILL suffer from the most discrimination and least amount of social acceptability as a GROUP etc...So then the problem is NOT really the lack of enough individual responsibility the problem is a SYSTEMIC one... which effects us as a GROUP and therefore should be dealt with as such i.e., seeking ways to re balance and fairly distribute resources and socioeconomic opportunity to Blacks as a GROUP. Otherwise all your talk about "personal responsibility" is MOOT and as I revealed above is clearly REDUNDANT since you've already admitted the MAJORITY of blacks are doing just that...I'm glad you've helped me prove my overall point. Thank You

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With respect to what is really "coonery culture" well lets be clear... the very definition/essence of a coon is one is that is so content with his perceived position of inferiority to whites that he see's no need to even try to rebalance any disparity that exists between him and whites.

And there ya have it! Agreed. It’s that type of victimization entitlement thinking (coonery culture) that is worse than racism. Sadly, it is the same mindset that seems to be trendy and acceptable. And it flies in the face of a noble history of people who did not see themselves as helpless incontinent victims, believing someone owed them a check simply because they were black (riding on the coattails of historical injustices). Historically, black people only wanted fair and equal access and an end to the humiliations of segregation and racial discrimination. Big difference….[/QUOTE]


You clearly have a problem discerning between instances where our points correlate and when they don't...My point was/is that no black person who is the descendant of slaves and truly understands it's legacy and impact should be against reparations. To the extent that they do understand and are STILL against it to me is the definition of a coon...e.g. Clarence Thomas who every one knows clearly understands the history and debilitating effects that the legacy of institutional slavery and discrimination has had and is still having on blacks. Yet he is one of the harshest critics of things such as affirmative action (even though he has personally benefited from it) citing that such discrimination is no longer as much as an impediment to Blacks...it is this type of position that has rightfully earned him the title of a Coon/Uncle Tom amongst most Blacks...When considering your condemnation of the concept of reparations/restitution for blacks DESPITE your stated acknowledgment of past injustices against blacks... one would not be hard pressed to see a correlation between your arguments and those of Clarence Thomas.

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Then ask yourself where do your statements..."it is not going to happen…..PERIOD." or "IT AIN’T HAPPNIN’!!!" fit into the overall scheme of things as it relates to the history of coonery?...You can avoid commenting on this also as once again this should be self evident.

My point is this bro D, this laughable fantasy that you are going to get a reparations check (or whatever since you or no one else has given a definitive detailed listing of something other than a check) for something that happened 150 years ago is not going to happen. Once again, for the fourth or fifth time, the government (if that is who you are looking to) is not going to give you a “for black folks only” check. What part of this do you not understand? What is it that you do understand and do not want to except? No….Tell ya what. When it happens (don’t hold your breath!), please post a thread entitled -See! I told you so!!! You were wrong!! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! [/QUOTE]


In response to your repetitiveness and fixation on what you think this is about i.e., some "check" I'm going to repeat what I said earlier in this thread... My rationale for supporting reparations is not born out of some desire to 'come up' off the unpaid labor of those long dead ancestors who worked from can't see in the morning to can't see at night which laid the foundation for this country to be built. This is not a case of trying to capitalize off someone else's mistreatment or some get rich quick scheme (personally I'm doing quite well financially so that's not what this is about for me). What this is about is the maldistribution of wealth and resources which have been forcibly and systematically withheld from us for 400 years. To me the concept of reparations is just the impetus or the 'crack in the dam' if you will...that provides the issue in which we can coalesce around as a GROUP in order to free up the wealth and resources that have been walled up from us for centuries.

At the end of the day you simply just don't understand the nature of the situation so it's my responsibility as someone who does to help you...that is if you are willing to accept the truth. That truth being that reparations should not be viewed through the prism of whats going on now...I believe that there are a series of converging forces at work as we speak that will make reparations look less like a "pipe dream" and more like a necessary means of survival.

On a side note... why do you choose to write out the words "Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!" every time you tickle/fondle yourself into an uncontrollable fit of glee?... like you are the Joker or somebody. I do believe a simple "LOL" or laughing smiley would suffice... no?

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This is part and parcel of the overall problem with your position... you are acting as if slavery existed in a vacuum and once it officially 'ended' 150 years ago (not really a long time historically speaking) that Blacks were free to function as equal citizens and that their rights were hence forth and forever protected under the constitution or something.

No….I have never thought nor written such. I am very aware of the evils and inhumane treatment black Americans endured under Jim Crow, segregation, lynching and racial discrimination. All of this is historically documented and cannot be denied. I never suggested blacks were treated fairly after the Emancipation of Proclamation. Slavery was now an illegal institution and no longer sanctioned under law. But racism was still alive and very pervasive and crippling to the well being of black people. And racism still exists although no where near the level it was in 1865, 1900, 1950 or 1970. Just look at the race hysteria by the Town Hall Brown Shirts and the hypocritical racial fear mongering Republicans (Rusty DePass., Sherry Goforth, Michele Bachmann, Rush Limbuagh, Carol Carter, et al).[/QUOTE]


*See above comparison to Clarence Thomas* who while acknowledging the historic racism and discrimination against Blacks is yet vehemently opposed to affirmative action which could help correct the past imbalances...You acknowledge historic racism and discrimination against Blacks yet are vehemently against reparations which could help correct past imbalances...Clarence Thomas' views and position makes him a Coon/Uncle Tom in the eyes of most Blacks... and you are different because???

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I guess you know nothing of the past 150 years AFTER slavery ended which included countless lynchings, pogroms, burnings, forced Sharecropping, total destruction of black towns such as Rosewood and the Greenwood community of Tulsa (Black Wall street) countless instances of using a………….05% of the nation which is disproportionate to their numerical 14% of the population...just to name a few.

I just addressed all of this. Once again –none of this is in dispute nor is it being historically contested by me. Next…..[/QUOTE]

I just addressed what we should rightfully consider those Blacks who while acknowledging past injustices support no efforts to correct it...

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So these are the types of things Blacks need to seek compensation for to answer your question buddy...not just the institution of slavery which as you said official 'ended' 150 years ago...because in case you hadn't noticed a whole helluva lot has happened to Blacks in the 150 years since we got our 'freedom'.

Sigh…..Ya know, once again, the history of racism and all its grotesque trappings is not being denied nor questioned…..PERIOD! I have no idea why you keep bringing it up. Those legally and socially sanctioned massive abuses are no longer occurring. And as I said before -that is not a refutation that racism does not still exist. But as I stated in a pervious post, no one is going to stop a black person from achieving nor attempting to achieve what he or she wants in life. You are free to choose any lifestyle or profession you want to. Our parents and grand parents did not necessarily have this option. And a history of discrimination and denial is not only restricted to black people. No need to detail this since they (over weigh people, women, handicapped, other minorities, etc) would be entitled to compensation also. I explained this before so I’m not going to repeat it again. Simply stating that you are a member of group that suffered past injustices does not legally entitle you to anything. If you cannot prove that you have personally suffered racial discrimination, well, you going to have a difficult time getting compensation for someone else’s suffering in a court of law. I can’t explain it any simpler than that…… [/QUOTE]

I brought it up because you seemed to insinuate that I was trying to seek compensation simply for slavery which as you stated ended 150 years ago...As if there had not been anything done to Blacks since then... but since you now acknowledge that many things did happen to Blacks since slavery ended we can move to the next issue....which is the misdirected moral equivalency of you comparing what has happened to Blacks in this country to "over weigh people, women, handicapped, other minorities, etc" [sic]... are you kidding me? someone else already had to correct this flaw in your thinking earlier in this thread and here you are spewing the same nonsense again.

Unless you can show me a point in history where "(over weigh people, women, handicapped, other minorities, etc)" endured countless lynchings, pogroms, burnings, forced Sharecropping, total destruction of their towns such as Rosewood and the Greenwood community of Tulsa (Black Wall street) countless instances of using a legal framework to cheat them out of their families land...using a legal framework to prevent them from owning businesses to compete with whites, erecting institutional barriers that have reduced and maintained their group wealth accumulation to a mere .05% of the nation which is disproportionate to their numerical % of the population etc....you really do need to refrain from using such criminally negligent, irresponsible and bogus comparisons.

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By the way, spare me the trite talk about shiny trinkets such as a "Bentley" and a "reparations check" it should be abundantly clear to even the most feeble of brains that I am talking of things of much more substance than that. However, if you cannot see beyond such trivialities then perhaps I have overestimated the mental faculties you possess to process/compute what I'm saying...which is ironic considering you named yourself after a Pentium chip.

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! That’s funny. Not trying to trivialize a history of discrimination and racism my friend. I’m simply stating that this simpleminded entitlement con game you have embraced is flawed and is never going to see the light of day. Perhaps it is you that is lacking the gray matter to comprehend the obvious and grasp the reality of what you are entitled to and what you are not. And yes, the moniker is after a Pentium chip since this is the only Pentium box I built. I’m an AMD man and I thought I would try the Pentium chip for a change. Works good. Next…..[/QUOTE]

The real con game is the one that you've obviously bought into which makes you believe that the only thing stopping blacks from getting ahead in the this country is their unwillingness to work hard...and that the blacks you see who have not 'made it' are simply too lazy to take advantage of opportunities. You have completely swallowed the stuff of conservative talking points hook line and sinker...the sad part is you don't even realize it. So yes you have indeed named yourself after a Pentium chip but based on what you have been saying so far I'm not quite sure if there is really any Intel (ligence) inside...

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Maybe you're not trying to play devils advocate...but nothing says advocate for the devil like wanting to maintain a status quo that places him in a superior position to yourself....and not being willing to explore ways to correct such an imbalance. The fact that you believe every word you write shows me that it's not the case that you are intentionally trying to mislead people...

Mislead people? Intentionally mislead them how? How am I misleading anyone? Have I told any lies? Have I stated something that did not exist? Where is the duplicity? Details please….[/QUOTE]

One can mislead people by propagating an erroneous belief system that they KNOW to be false or by propagating a belief system that they themselves were mislead into believing...I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that yours is a case of being the latter and not the former. The duplicity of what you are saying does not seem to be stemming from your intention to be deceitful...it seems to be coming from the simple fact that you just don't know any better. Case in point all of your prescribed methods of dealing with the Black condition such as writing off reparations as unnecessary under the auspices of at this point all Blacks have to do is work hard, save and invest so they can reach parity with any other group... therefore reparations will only disable us and hurt our work ethic. While this is indeed a noble ideology it's simply not based on the reality of the situation.

You seem to be parroting long held conservative view points that somehow this is a level playing field... when the reality is that things have been so skewed for so long that it simply feels normal. There is a vested interest for the group to which such a standard favors for them to accept the status quo... in that they can enjoy the fruits of a societal socioeconomic construct skewed in their favor and simply revel in self imposed blissful ignorance i.e., white privilege. However, there is no reason for any member of the group that such a society has been skewed against to take up the cause of the privileged group and become overly sympathetic/apologetic to them in lieu of the group to which they belong...which makes me curious as to why you are doing so if indeed you are black....If your cause is truly noble and you only are trying to provide 'tough love' with all your "personal responsibility" pontifications aimed at Blacks...Then as I pointed out to you above you have stated that the majority of Blacks are already taking personal responsibility so that means that whats holding them back are EXTERNAL forces....so your constant drumbeat of personal responsibility is MOOT and REDUNDANT and to the extent that there are those who take what you are saying at face value they are also going down the wrong path. This is how you are being misleading... to answer your question.

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…..you are just misguided yourself and need to be put on the right path... that's where I come in.

I’m misguided? Oh really? And just how am I misguided? Because I don’t accept self destructive behavior and the self serving nefarious politics of victimization and entitlement? Misguided because I don’t buy into the obtuse scam of pontificating about a check (or whatever else it is that you think you deserve) based on the suffering of others 150 years ago? And you say that’s were you come in??? Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Now that’s really funny…..[/QUOTE]

Yes misguided and very much so... not because you "don’t accept self destructive behavior" but because you don't seem to be able to discern between what truly is self destructive behavior and what is not. You speak of not wanting to accept the "self serving nefarious politics of victimization and entitlement" (or what you deem it to be) where blacks are concerned...however you lend your benign acquiescence to just that where whites are concerned... in the form of accepting the status quo as "normal".

There is nothing "normal" about the average Black family having only a fraction of the household income as the average white family... and whites families having 14 TIMES more wealth than the average Black family. There is nothing "normal" about Black men still only making 70 cents on the dollar compared to white men doing the SAME job. There is nothing "normal" about the unemployment rate for Black men being the highest in this country. There is nothing "normal" about the poverty rates for Blacks being up to 80 PERCENT in certain parts of this country. There is nothing "normal" about the incarceration rate of Blacks being the highest in the country for drug convictions when WHITES are the largest consumers of illicit drugs and so on.

So your entire premise is based on what amounts to be nothing more than a social illusion... in that you seem to have bought into the conservative based dogma that this country despite it's long history race based socioeconomic imbalances...has some how moved beyond it to the point that now Blacks essentially only have themselves to blame if they are not getting ahead... since "there is nothing holding them back but themselves". It is your view that no type of special consideration is either warranted or feasible. You then try to justify this belief (in much the same way conservatives do) by pointing to a select few of Blacks that have garnered some degree of measurable "success"... which is a fallacy in and of itself but more on this later....So yes I would say that all of this makes you misguided at best.

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Not so fast sporty, don't pat yourself on the back too hard... remember I only agree with you based on the method of payment not being just some 'check' but I am an advocate for a true correction of the socioeconomic imbalance that exists between Blacks and whites...

Oh? And exactly what do you propose? List the details please. Oh yeah, one more thing, exactly where is the “money” (if that is what you seek) going to come from? Exactly who and what will be responsible for your reparations relief fund? Who will administer it? Who qualifies and who does not? Again, please answer all the questions and list the details. I would like to hear everything you have to say….[/QUOTE]


As I once told JWC in a discussion where he seemed to be narrowing the scope of what reparations are to merely just being about "money" or a "check"... if our people are going to SERIOUSLY pursue reparations we should first seek those THINGS that we have been robbed of like LAND (not necessarily limited to the U.S. either) LABOR meaning those governments and corporations who benefited from our free labor should build a world class infrastructure (which would include spiritual centers, schools, museums, libraries etc) for the purpose of cultivating a special socioeconomic and cultural development zone. Within this zone Blacks would be allowed to build TRUE common cultural bonds with each other (something they were prevented from doing for hundreds of years) meaning all Blacks should undergo something of a eurocentric cultural DETOX whereby they are reintroduced to themselves and their TRUE history...which would help them to develop a new sense of pride and lay the foundations for Blacks to begin setting their OWN standards for themselves (including those of beauty) which will in turn help to mitigate the feelings of inferiority most of our women have (not to mention the self hatred rampant among blacks) as they navigate through a society laced with eurocentric standards.

This will have the multiplier effect of redirecting the time, money and resources that our people spend trying to look like something they're not back into their community...instead of into the coffers of non blacks as is the case today. We would also be able to engage in mutually beneficial economic practices such as ethno-aggregation (a system practiced by every other group except us) this would give many more blacks the autonomy they need to take care of themselves so they wouldn't need anyone's "check". So both LAND and LABOR are essential to repair what Blacks have been robbed of... and with advancements in technology this should much be easier for them than when our people did it. in addition GOLD (which was also stolen from blacks but you don't hear much about)... could be the basis by which we built up our own economy and then if WE decided to print our OWN currency (featuring OUR own dead leaders if we liked) BACKED by this gold that would be our prerogative to do so. This is what true reparations would look like my brotha far from being just some "check" denominated in a fiat debt instrument such as the U.S. dollar. Regarding your rhetorical question about "who would administer it" this would be a minor detail easily worked out...there are any number of qualified people that can do this task I'm working with a couple of Black think tanks right now that are moving in this direction already. Regarding your second rhetorical question about "who qualifies and who doesn't"...All American born blacks of unknown African ancestry who were descended from enslaved human beings imported into this country as chattel would qualify.

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some can call that reparations I really don't care what you call it as long as the effect is the same. Aside from your opposition to Blacks receiving some big ole' check where do you fall on the issue of true wealth distribution?...try to avoid giving me the same tired line about Blacks only needing to work harder and save more because as I've illustrated the wealth distribution mechanisms in this country have been systematically skewed away from Blacks...

So your issue is “wealth distribution”? Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Wow! You really don’t get it do you? Get in line bro…!!!! First of all, yes, the major wealth in this country is held by what -about 5% of the general population? So what do you propose? Taking their money away and redistributing it to those who make less than $25,000 a year? In case you didn’t know it my friend, we live in a free market and capitalist country. What you make is what you keep (after the IRS…). You don’t owe anyone anything. You obviously are unaware of self made rich people (black, white, Asian, etc) who came from marginal, humble and undistinguished backgrounds. No one gave them anything! They worked for what they got. You are free to make your own wealth (you didn’t know that???). And if you haven’t noticed, there is a generation of young blacks in the rap industry who have done just that. You also have blacks who have made fortunes in sports, investments, education and promotions and self made entrepreneurship who have made very lucrative incomes. Who stopped them?

Secondly, most Americans are not on the receiving end of wealth. You forgot (selectively) about millions and millions of working class and poor people of all races who are not connected to the Vanderbilt’s, Rockefellers, Buffett’s, Walton’s or Adelson’s. They labor in obscurity, trying desperately to keep their homes and jobs. We do not live in a country where what you have is expected to be had by everyone else. And no one is stopping any black person from attaining wealth. What state or federal law prohibits it? What black person was on the verge of making a fortune only to denied for racial reasons? Got any examples? Answer the questions….. Finally, want a lot of money? Good… Go make your own! [/QUOTE]

First of all I don't know about you or what you do for a living.... but dealing with Economics, Banking, Finance and Markets is what I do...So there is no need to try to educate me on the wealth distribution in this country I know it very well...and no it's not "5% of the population" that owns most of the wealth in this country it's 20% of the population which owns 85%, leaving only 15% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers). Of that remaining 15% Blacks control .05% of it even though they are 14% of the population.... Do you think this just occurred by happenstance? Then you make the classic error of citing "self made" rich people to try to justify what you're saying which as I alluded to earlier is a fallacy. Just so you'll know contrary to your fairy tale belief in this "free market capitalist country" the way most of the real wealth is created is by GROUP cooperative economics and ethno aggregation.

Show me a white or Asian person running a business and I will show you a person that was either born or immigrated into this country with their culture and traditions in tact unhampered by a legacy of centuries of slavery and subjugation that robbed them of the ability to profit from their ethnicity. Then you cite rappers and ball players as your example of Black wealth? You can't be serious...are you? If so tell me how many rappers own there own labels, masters and distribution and have the creative freedom and power to promote positivity successfully in their music? Most are just modern day minstrel charters who take their marching orders from the big (non Black owned) labels who sign their checks...The same goes for sports how many blacks own teams? most black ball players are bought and traded by the team owners in ways reminiscent of chattel slavery... and if they get injured they're "damaged goods" and simply replaced.

Regarding your statement about those of us who have made it in "investments, education and promotions and self made entrepreneurship who have made very lucrative incomes." I will tell you this for example... as someone who started out my career in the world of investments there were PLENTY of blockades in my way trying to stop me...My perseverance is the reason they didn't succeed (so yes I indeed have made my own) but I don't use that as a means to say things like "And no one is stopping any black person from attaining wealth" because personally know that not to be true... I saw too many other Blacks systematically weeded out along the way through no fault of their own.

I'm also well aware that most Americans are not on the receiving end of "Vanderbilt’s, Rockefellers, Buffett’s, Walton’s or Adelson’s" type wealth it is impractical for everyone to be... and thats no even even what I'm saying. what I am saying is that all those families you rattled off are WHITE and that the AVERAGE white household (not the uber rich) have 14 TIMES the wealth of the average black household and that blacks only control .05% of this nations wealth while making up 14% of the population contrasted by the mostly WHITE top 20% of the population who controls 85% of it...again do you think this is just happenstance or because these whites just worked harder?

quote:

…so what else you got?

Look above. You just read it. Next……[/QUOTE]

What you said was bogus as I just pointed out...now you look above.

quote:

Indeed no one should get anything they are not entitled to...so let me ask you this do you believe that whites are entitled to over 400 years of your ancestors unpaid labor (assuming you are Black) using such labor to build a civilization in which you the descendant can not partake equally...in the form of a fair distribution of the wealth that was generated by this labor? Do you feel whites are entitled to being the beneficiaries of not only just the wealth that their ancestors produced but also the wealth that your ancestors produced?

Wow! Uhhhhh…I had to read this twice and I still can’t believe you are so ignorant of history. And I say that not to be offensive nor disrespectful to you but to the incredulous mythical propaganda you wrote (and believe). First of all, the overwhelming number of white Americans had nothing to do with slavery. They were not recipients of the wealth it generated. Most white Americans were indifferent and did not care one way or another. The class that benefited from slavery was destroyed after the Civil war. You seem to have forgotten that the South was totally bankrupt and prostrate, its farms, rail ways and factories in ruins and communities burned to the grown. The South looked like Germany or Poland in 1945. Whites Southerners were impoverished, disheveled and in disarray when the war ended. There was no longer an aristocratic class of wealthy white Southerners sitting on the porches of their mansions as you have been lead to believe. The South had to be rebuilt after the massive destruction and scorched earth policies of the Union Armies. The class of people you point your finger at (white slave owners who benefited from slavery) no longer existed. Even Andrew Johnson (who was white supremacist), the succeeding president after Lincolns assassination, hated the aristocratic wealthy class of slave owners and was delighted at their demise.

Secondly, your belief that all whites benefited form slavery is for the most part, completely erroneous. It’s like saying all black people are benefiting from the fortunes of wealthy rappers, famous black athletes or Oprah Winfrey. Almost half of white Americans are descendents of European immigrants that came to this country “after the slavery”. What about them? Are they part of the “you owe us too” for the fortunes of wealthy white Southern slave owners? Where do you draw the line? And exactly how did they benefit? They never received a slavery check or a free slave because they were white. And I say this not do defend slavery or the racists who enslaved black people. I’m simply stating documented historical facts that may contradict the emotional lather you get worked up about. And yes, I am very aware of the brutal oppression of the Black Codes, lynching, wanton violence, beatings, Jim Crow laws and forced segregation that blacks endured following the post Reconstruction period (after Rutherford Hayes worked a deal to get those 20 electoral votes and subsequently withdrew federal troops in 1877, thus enabling Southern whites to regain complete power once again). But regardless, even though the treatment of blacks was ugly and inhumane, simply having white skin did not entitle the majority of whites to the fortunes of slavery. [/QUOTE]


It appears that I made the assumption that I could speak in generalities about certain things with you taking for granted that you would understand the larger point I was making...apparently this is not the case. I did not say that all whites owned slaves just like all whites today are not wealthy (because it was only the wealthy who could afford slaves) However, the point is that the white elite class made PARTNERSHIPS with the lower white class in their oppression of blacks and in exchange they were granted privileges that live on to this day. As Tim Wise even points out this was done under the illusion of their shared stake in maintaining the status quo due to their shared "whiteness". So you are absolutely wrong in your statement that "Most white Americans were indifferent and did not care one way or another" They cared A LOT because the subjugation of blacks allowed them to have a privileged role in the society...You mentioned that "Whites Southerners were impoverished, disheveled and in disarray when the war ended" [sic] but why do you think they fought to preserve the status quo to begin with??? If by your estimation "Most white Americans were indifferent and did not care one way or another"?

To your second point Slavery was not just some minor anomaly that only benefited a handful of long dead slave owners as you would have people believe..slavery was the MAIN economic driving force of this country for centuries. The very foundations of this "free capitalistic system" was based on the slave trade...It was the broken bodies of men, women and children imported into this country in bondage that provided the brick and mortar which first built "Wall street". So that legacy of hundreds of years FREE labor that went into white coffers in the form of STOCKS and BONDS which have been handed down through the generations... maybe just maybe has something to do with the fact that the average white family has 14 times more wealth than the average black family...are you beginning to connect the dots now?

quote:

The last time I checked I don't see whites or any other people for that matter (besides negroes disconnected from their heritage) creating a barrier between them and their ancestors....

Agreed. But I personally, don’t know of anyone doing such a thing. One more thing, did you kow that blacks from the West Indies/Carreibean and Africa are some of the harshest critics of the alleged “lazy-want something for nothing-American Negroes”? Did you also know this negative perception is wide spread among other non-white minorities? Are you aware of this?

My neighbor told me earlier today, two Haitians told her if black Americans spent as much time trying to make education a priority for their children, as they do constantly whining and complaining, they would not face the problems they do. She said they also criticized American blacks for failing to match the academic and scholastic standards that Asians and other non-white immigrants did (their words –not mine). Their point was American Negroes face numerous problems that only they can address and solve. The indifference or acceptance of criminality (why is going to jail an accepted rite of passage for young black males?) and an almost ¾ black illegitimacy rate (unprecedented in the modern world!) has nothing to do with white racism! Only American Negroes can affect the changes necessary to correct this self mutilating cultural trend.

And a friend of mine who was in the military, recently married an African woman (initially it was one of those Green Card arrangements but later turned into a real emotional relationship) and they had a very interesting conversation. According to him, she told him that there should be no welfare….period! She said that all the things you (black Americans) need are here and black Americans were lazy and were not as aggressive (as a group) and ambitious as other blacks (e.g. Africans, blacks from the West Indies/Caribbean, etc). She said, “Were I come from, there are no hand outs. If you want something, you have to work for it and get it yourself. Black people here are lazy!”. She also told him Negroes love the “niggerdom” world. When he pressed her for an explanation, she said, “When black people constantly call each other “niggers” in front of white people and world, what else is it? They get no respect because they don’t respect themselves” (ouch!). Harsh words from a fellow black person observing black Americans. Just curious, what’s your spin on such views held by non-American blacks?
[/QUOTE]

Sure you do... you need not look any further than the mirror...because every time you dismiss slavery as something that happened to "Other People" you are putting up a barrier between you and your ancestors (again that is if you are descended from slaves) and yes I am aware that some blacks from around the world are critical of American negroes...just like their are many around the world who are sympathetic to our cause...what's your point? To the extent that there are those who criticize American blacks out of ignorance I don't give them any more weight than I do Black American conservatives who do the same. Regarding your little stories about the Haitians, and your friends African mail order bride and what my spin on such views held by non-American blacks is ....reread what I just wrote above...

quote:

LieDecrypter: I believe you have a few things twisted pal, acknowledging the race based socioeconomic and institutional barricades that have been levied against Blacks in this country and seeking ways to break them down and fairly redistribute resources into Black hands is far from "excuse making" or "victimization".

Xeon: No, it is not I who has this twisted my friend. I never said racism did not exist or that it was never an historical barrier to black acquisition to socio-economic parity. My position is that I do not agree with excuse making and rationalization for black poor personal decision (e.g. Michael Eric Dyson) making that leads to self inflicted adversity and problems. I also do not buy into the self intoxicating myth of the helpless black victim who has no control over their lives and have to be pitied and given special considerations when other blacks in identical situations, work, go to school, sacrifice, avoid the lure of criminality, take advantage of available resources and opportunities, plan for the long term, avoid the thug life and the cancerous baby mama drama. And for the record -the majority of black Americans are the aforementioned. It’s just the loud-whiny-you owe me something-obnoxious-self anointed-victimization-Negroes who I disagree with…..

quote:

LieDecrypter: I think you're barking up the wrong tree here kid...since what I am referring to with regard to acknowledging the race based socioeconomic and institutional barricades against Blacks as a GROUP has nothing to do with your personal pet peeve against the Michael Eric Dyson types who rationalize the poor decisions that some INDIVIDUAL blacks are making. Personally, I'm one of the biggest critics of the self inflicted damage that blacks do to themselves such as Black on Black crime, tolerating a subculture that glorifies the worst aspects of human behavior, economic irresponsibility (not the least of which is the collective failure to lobby for the resources that were withheld from them historically in order to help build their OWN communities and industries instead of simply just wanting to integrate with whites...hence my disagreement with your position)

I also don't believe in the "self intoxicating myth of the helpless black victim" but the difference between you and me is that I don't just limit it to blacks as INDIVIDUALS surviving within the limits of a Euro-centric socioeconomic construct. I extrapolate this belief regarding our abilities to us as a GROUP and I am a stern believer that Blacks in this country could function as a viable unified GROUP instead of just being a collection of wayward individuals just looking to "get by" or "get over" within a system that they neither own or control. What you don't seem to realize is that our views are not mutually exclusive... one can be a champion for Black personal responsibility while simultaneously being a champion of special consideration for the purpose of Black GROUP advancement. I'm living proof of this... as I am one of those Blacks that you just mentioned who "works, went to school, sacrificed, avoided the lure of criminality, took advantage of available resources and opportunities, planned for the long term, avoided the thug life and the cancerous baby mama drama." I also have many friends and family who did the same... yet when I look around I still see a socioeconomic construct in place that does not keep blacks in place collectively in a de jure way (such as with Jim crow laws in the past) it is done in a de facto way meaning convincing the populace (including Blacks themselves) that what we see regarding our socioeconomic disparities is "normal" and just a function of being citizens in a free market system....more on this later.

Oh and concerning the last point you made when you stated that " the majority of black Americans are the aforementioned" meaning those who have played by the rules and are not the "loud-whiny-you owe me something-obnoxious-self anointed-victimization-Negroes" that you disagree with..Then the question becomes so what the problem is???? If by your own admission most Blacks are...

"workings, going to school, sacrificing, avoiding the lure of criminality, taking advantage of available resources and opportunities, planning for the long term, avoiding the thug life and the cancerous baby mama drama".

Yet they STILL suffer from the highest rates of unemployment as a GROUP, they STILL suffer from lowest amount of household and individual wealth as a GROUP, they STILL suffer from owning the least amount of businesses as a GROUP, they still suffer the most unfair treatment within the criminal justice system as a GROUP... they STILL suffer from the most discrimination and least amount of social acceptability as a GROUP etc...So then the problem is NOT really the lack of enough individual responsibility the problem is a SYSTEMIC one... which effects us as a GROUP and therefore should be dealt with as such i.e., seeking ways to re balance and fairly distribute resources and socioeconomic opportunity to Blacks as a GROUP. Otherwise all your talk about "personal responsibility" is MOOT and as I revealed above is clearly REDUNDANT since you've already admitted the MAJORITY of blacks are doing just that...I'm glad you've helped me prove my overall point. Thank You

LieDecrypter, you. are. the. bomb !!!!! Dang, that was beautiful.

ah, Xeon....where are you bro?

'Still' trying to come up for air I presume.

If only the Indigenous had the intestinal fortitude to say when the Mayflower docked, "Damn, you can't stay here, you look like Sasquatch, and must leave!", all of this crap could have been eliminated.

quote:

Originally posted by Fabulous:

quote:

LieDecrypter: I believe you have a few things twisted pal, acknowledging the race based socioeconomic and institutional barricades that have been levied against Blacks in this country and seeking ways to break them down and fairly redistribute resources into Black hands is far from "excuse making" or "victimization".

Xeon: No, it is not I who has this twisted my friend. I never said racism did not exist or that it was never an historical barrier to black acquisition to socio-economic parity. My position is that I do not agree with excuse making and rationalization for black poor personal decision (e.g. Michael Eric Dyson) making that leads to self inflicted adversity and problems. I also do not buy into the self intoxicating myth of the helpless black victim who has no control over their lives and have to be pitied and given special considerations when other blacks in identical situations, work, go to school, sacrifice, avoid the lure of criminality, take advantage of available resources and opportunities, plan for the long term, avoid the thug life and the cancerous baby mama drama. And for the record -the majority of black Americans are the aforementioned. It’s just the loud-whiny-you owe me something-obnoxious-self anointed-victimization-Negroes who I disagree with…..

quote:

LieDecrypter: I think you're barking up the wrong tree here kid...since what I am referring to with regard to acknowledging the race based socioeconomic and institutional barricades against Blacks as a GROUP has nothing to do with your personal pet peeve against the Michael Eric Dyson types who rationalize the poor decisions that some INDIVIDUAL blacks are making. Personally, I'm one of the biggest critics of the self inflicted damage that blacks do to themselves such as Black on Black crime, tolerating a subculture that glorifies the worst aspects of human behavior, economic irresponsibility (not the least of which is the collective failure to lobby for the resources that were withheld from them historically in order to help build their OWN communities and industries instead of simply just wanting to integrate with whites...hence my disagreement with your position)

I also don't believe in the "self intoxicating myth of the helpless black victim" but the difference between you and me is that I don't just limit it to blacks as INDIVIDUALS surviving within the limits of a Euro-centric socioeconomic construct. I extrapolate this belief regarding our abilities to us as a GROUP and I am a stern believer that Blacks in this country could function as a viable unified GROUP instead of just being a collection of wayward individuals just looking to "get by" or "get over" within a system that they neither own or control. What you don't seem to realize is that our views are not mutually exclusive... one can be a champion for Black personal responsibility while simultaneously being a champion of special consideration for the purpose of Black GROUP advancement. I'm living proof of this... as I am one of those Blacks that you just mentioned who "works, went to school, sacrificed, avoided the lure of criminality, took advantage of available resources and opportunities, planned for the long term, avoided the thug life and the cancerous baby mama drama." I also have many friends and family who did the same... yet when I look around I still see a socioeconomic construct in place that does not keep blacks in place collectively in a de jure way (such as with Jim crow laws in the past) it is done in a de facto way meaning convincing the populace (including Blacks themselves) that what we see regarding our socioeconomic disparities is "normal" and just a function of being citizens in a free market system....more on this later.

Oh and concerning the last point you made when you stated that " the majority of black Americans are the aforementioned" meaning those who have played by the rules and are not the "loud-whiny-you owe me something-obnoxious-self anointed-victimization-Negroes" that you disagree with..Then the question becomes so what the problem is???? If by your own admission most Blacks are...

"workings, going to school, sacrificing, avoiding the lure of criminality, taking advantage of available resources and opportunities, planning for the long term, avoiding the thug life and the cancerous baby mama drama".

Yet they STILL suffer from the highest rates of unemployment as a GROUP, they STILL suffer from lowest amount of household and individual wealth as a GROUP, they STILL suffer from owning the least amount of businesses as a GROUP, they still suffer the most unfair treatment within the criminal justice system as a GROUP... they STILL suffer from the most discrimination and least amount of social acceptability as a GROUP etc...So then the problem is NOT really the lack of enough individual responsibility the problem is a SYSTEMIC one... which effects us as a GROUP and therefore should be dealt with as such i.e., seeking ways to re balance and fairly distribute resources and socioeconomic opportunity to Blacks as a GROUP. Otherwise all your talk about "personal responsibility" is MOOT and as I revealed above is clearly REDUNDANT since you've already admitted the MAJORITY of blacks are doing just that...I'm glad you've helped me prove my overall point. Thank You

LieDecrypter, you. are. the. bomb !!!!! Dang, that was beautiful.

ah, Xeon....where are you bro?

'Still' trying to come up for air I presume.

Fab, if you are correct in that Xeon cannot formulate a cogent response to my statements then to the extent that I have garnered some type of personal victory over him takes a back seat to my larger point. which is Blacks need a complete paradigm shift in how they see themselves in this country, how we relate to each other, what our future is going to be and the things we need to be doing as a GROUP. It is never my goal to try to make someone look bad intentionally my only concern is dealing with the FACTS, if those facts expose the weakness in someones position which subsequently happens to make them look bad... so be it. When I first started posting on these types of boards about 7 years ago I must admit I enjoyed destroying the positions of both racist whites and uncle tom types alike...however after the novelty of that wore off I started seeing this as a positive way to convey ideas to our people.

Now at this point I feel that the sense of urgency to convey these types of messages has increased because I see a series of events and socioeconomic storms coming that will dramatically impact Blacks in particular that they are woefully ill prepared for. Which is why I spend my time working on and off these boards trying to reach the types of Blacks who will listen and begin to make the proper changes in their lives to prepare. To those Blacks who will not listen and would like to challenge anything I have to say I will continue to extend an open invitation for them to do so. I am not laying down this gauntlet to be arrogant rather I am showing my willingness to be corrected if I am wrong in my statements. If proven to be erroneous in any of my statements I will humbly admit to such and tell the person who exposed it that they are correct (in lieu of just simply dropping the discussion or changing the subject as seems to be the norm when people are proven wrong on these types of forums) however when it's shown that my position is correct I will not back down and the more someone tries to deny the TRUTH the more I will dig in until they simply can no longer logically support their position. Again this is not to intentionally make anyone look bad I just want us all to accept things for what they ARE and not what we just THINK they are...Then and only then can we make the REAL changes that we want to see.

quote:

Originally posted by LieDecrypter:

quote:

Originally posted by Fabulous:

quote:

LieDecrypter: I believe you have a few things twisted pal, acknowledging the race based socioeconomic and institutional barricades that have been levied against Blacks in this country and seeking ways to break them down and fairly redistribute resources into Black hands is far from "excuse making" or "victimization".

Xeon: No, it is not I who has this twisted my friend. I never said racism did not exist or that it was never an historical barrier to black acquisition to socio-economic parity. My position is that I do not agree with excuse making and rationalization for black poor personal decision (e.g. Michael Eric Dyson) making that leads to self inflicted adversity and problems. I also do not buy into the self intoxicating myth of the helpless black victim who has no control over their lives and have to be pitied and given special considerations when other blacks in identical situations, work, go to school, sacrifice, avoid the lure of criminality, take advantage of available resources and opportunities, plan for the long term, avoid the thug life and the cancerous baby mama drama. And for the record -the majority of black Americans are the aforementioned. It’s just the loud-whiny-you owe me something-obnoxious-self anointed-victimization-Negroes who I disagree with…..

quote:

LieDecrypter: I think you're barking up the wrong tree here kid...since what I am referring to with regard to acknowledging the race based socioeconomic and institutional barricades against Blacks as a GROUP has nothing to do with your personal pet peeve against the Michael Eric Dyson types who rationalize the poor decisions that some INDIVIDUAL blacks are making. Personally, I'm one of the biggest critics of the self inflicted damage that blacks do to themselves such as Black on Black crime, tolerating a subculture that glorifies the worst aspects of human behavior, economic irresponsibility (not the least of which is the collective failure to lobby for the resources that were withheld from them historically in order to help build their OWN communities and industries instead of simply just wanting to integrate with whites...hence my disagreement with your position)

I also don't believe in the "self intoxicating myth of the helpless black victim" but the difference between you and me is that I don't just limit it to blacks as INDIVIDUALS surviving within the limits of a Euro-centric socioeconomic construct. I extrapolate this belief regarding our abilities to us as a GROUP and I am a stern believer that Blacks in this country could function as a viable unified GROUP instead of just being a collection of wayward individuals just looking to "get by" or "get over" within a system that they neither own or control. What you don't seem to realize is that our views are not mutually exclusive... one can be a champion for Black personal responsibility while simultaneously being a champion of special consideration for the purpose of Black GROUP advancement. I'm living proof of this... as I am one of those Blacks that you just mentioned who "works, went to school, sacrificed, avoided the lure of criminality, took advantage of available resources and opportunities, planned for the long term, avoided the thug life and the cancerous baby mama drama." I also have many friends and family who did the same... yet when I look around I still see a socioeconomic construct in place that does not keep blacks in place collectively in a de jure way (such as with Jim crow laws in the past) it is done in a de facto way meaning convincing the populace (including Blacks themselves) that what we see regarding our socioeconomic disparities is "normal" and just a function of being citizens in a free market system....more on this later.

Oh and concerning the last point you made when you stated that " the majority of black Americans are the aforementioned" meaning those who have played by the rules and are not the "loud-whiny-you owe me something-obnoxious-self anointed-victimization-Negroes" that you disagree with..Then the question becomes so what the problem is???? If by your own admission most Blacks are...

"workings, going to school, sacrificing, avoiding the lure of criminality, taking advantage of available resources and opportunities, planning for the long term, avoiding the thug life and the cancerous baby mama drama".

Yet they STILL suffer from the highest rates of unemployment as a GROUP, they STILL suffer from lowest amount of household and individual wealth as a GROUP, they STILL suffer from owning the least amount of businesses as a GROUP, they still suffer the most unfair treatment within the criminal justice system as a GROUP... they STILL suffer from the most discrimination and least amount of social acceptability as a GROUP etc...So then the problem is NOT really the lack of enough individual responsibility the problem is a SYSTEMIC one... which effects us as a GROUP and therefore should be dealt with as such i.e., seeking ways to re balance and fairly distribute resources and socioeconomic opportunity to Blacks as a GROUP. Otherwise all your talk about "personal responsibility" is MOOT and as I revealed above is clearly REDUNDANT since you've already admitted the MAJORITY of blacks are doing just that...I'm glad you've helped me prove my overall point. Thank You

LieDecrypter, you. are. the. bomb !!!!! Dang, that was beautiful.

ah, Xeon....where are you bro?

'Still' trying to come up for air I presume.

Fab, if you are correct in that Xeon cannot formulate a cogent response to my statements then to the extent that I have garnered some type of personal victory over him takes a back seat to my larger point. which is Blacks need a complete paradigm shift in how they see themselves in this country, how we relate to each other, what our future is going to be and the things we need to be doing as a GROUP. It is never my goal to try to make someone look bad intentionally my only concern is dealing with the FACTS, if those facts expose the weakness in someones position which subsequently happens to make them look bad... so be it. When I first started posting on these types of boards about 7 years ago I must admit I enjoyed destroying the positions of both racist whites and uncle tom types alike...however after the novelty of that wore off I started seeing this as a positive way to convey ideas to our people.

Now at this point I feel that the sense of urgency to convey these types of messages has increased because I see a series of events and socioeconomic storms coming that will dramatically impact Blacks in particular that they are woefully ill prepared for. Which is why I spend my time working on and off these boards trying to reach the types of Blacks who will listen and begin to make the proper changes in their lives to prepare. To those Blacks who will not listen and would like to challenge anything I have to say I will continue to extend an open invitation for them to do so. I am not laying down this gauntlet to be arrogant rather I am showing my willingness to be corrected if I am wrong in my statements. If proven to be erroneous in any of my statements I will humbly admit to such and tell the person who exposed it that they are correct (in lieu of just simply dropping the discussion or changing the subject as seems to be the norm when people are proven wrong on these types of forums) however when it's shown that my position is correct I will not back down and the more someone tries to deny the TRUTH the more I will dig in until they simply can no longer logically support their position. Again this is not to intentionally make anyone look bad I just want us all to accept things for what they ARE and not what we just THINK they are...Then and only then can we make the REAL changes that we want to see.

Understood.