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quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:

In my opinion Clinton has been treated like a N!gger in this process, while Obama has been given the privileges of a white male.



20

The funniest thing I've heard all day.

Now that's not patronizing?

Hillary was given the benefit of front runner status from the get go.

If she's so damned experienced and such a fantastic manager ... how do you explain the piss poor manner in which her campaign was managed (with apparently no planning beyond Super Tuesday)?

Is it not the epitome of "condescendingly patronizing" to attribute Obama's success to media unfairness towards Clinton ... rather than to Obama's skills?


I mean really.

This is the candidate who supposedly has all the experience necessary to take on the right wing attack machine in the coming months ...

But then you're going to argue that she was sunk by a bit of negative press and her oooooooooh so inexperienced opponent???????????? 20
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:

In my opinion Clinton has been treated like a N!gger in this process, while Obama has been given the privileges of a white male.



20

The funniest thing I've heard all day.

Now that's not patronizing?

Hillary was given the benefit of front runner status from the get go.

If she's so damned experienced and such a fantastic manager ... how do you explain the piss poor manner in which her campaign was managed (with apparently no planning beyond Super Tuesday)?

Is it not the epitome of "condescendingly patronizing" to attribute Obama's success to media unfairness towards Clinton ... rather than to Obama's skills?


WHen one has more than enough money....it hides any mismanagement. Obama has gotten a lot more money than Clinton. It takes money to win elections and Obama had more of it.
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:

In my opinion Clinton has been treated like a N!gger in this process, while Obama has been given the privileges of a white male.



20

The funniest thing I've heard all day.

Now that's not patronizing?

Hillary was given the benefit of front runner status from the get go.

If she's so damned experienced and such a fantastic manager ... how do you explain the piss poor manner in which her campaign was managed (with apparently no planning beyond Super Tuesday)?

Is it not the epitome of "condescendingly patronizing" to attribute Obama's success to media unfairness towards Clinton ... rather than to Obama's skills?


WHen one has more than enough money....it hides any mismanagement. Obama has gotten a lot more money than Clinton. It takes money to win elections and Obama had more of it.



And WHY does he have more money?????

That shouldn't be the case if Hillary's experience argument meant a great deal.

She's has ALLL that experience. ALLL those management skills ("Ready to go on day one!"). And front runner/party favorite status from the get go.

It sounds like the tortoise and the hare to me.

And Hillary is the hare.


quote:


I mean really.

This is the candidate who supposedly has all the experience necessary to take on the right wing attack machine in the coming months ...

But then you're going to argue that she was sunk by a bit of negative press and her oooooooooh so inexperienced opponent????????????
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:

In my opinion Clinton has been treated like a N!gger in this process, while Obama has been given the privileges of a white male.



20

The funniest thing I've heard all day.

Now that's not patronizing?

Hillary was given the benefit of front runner status from the get go.

If she's so damned experienced and such a fantastic manager ... how do you explain the piss poor manner in which her campaign was managed (with apparently no planning beyond Super Tuesday)?

Is it not the epitome of "condescendingly patronizing" to attribute Obama's success to media unfairness towards Clinton ... rather than to Obama's skills?


WHen one has more than enough money....it hides any mismanagement. Obama has gotten a lot more money than Clinton. It takes money to win elections and Obama had more of it.



And WHY does he have more money?????

That shouldn't be the case if Hillary's experience argument meant a great deal.

She's has ALLL that experience. ALLL those management skills ("Ready to go on day one!"). And front runner/party favorite status from the get go.

It sounds like the tortoise and the hare to me.

And Hillary is the hare.


quote:


I mean really.

This is the candidate who supposedly has all the experience necessary to take on the right wing attack machine in the coming months ...

But then you're going to argue that she was sunk by a bit of negative press and her oooooooooh so inexperienced opponent????????????


More people have contributed to Obama's campaign than Hilary. More people were inspired to donate to Obama than Hilary. I don't know who is funding Obama...they say small donations over the internet...but I don't know who is doing that. You don't know that Republicans are not helping to fund the campaign of Obama....due to their hate of CLinton. Money can help canidates win elections.

Moreover, I have never argued that she has more experience to take on the right wing attack machine. My position on that is that she has already been under constant attack from them and it cannot get that much worse. It can get a lot worse for Obama.....and he had supposedly pleged to use Public funding for the general election....which he is reported to be trying to wiggle out of....like politicians do.

PS....its funny how we digressed from the issue of whether a good person would change an evil system or whether the good person will become the lastest face of evil.
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:

I think a prerequisite is that people have to WANT to understand my point. If any of you don't want to understand my point of view, you will never understand my point of view. It's my contention that many of you have the goal of attacking my point of view...which is fine. However, stop acting stupid about my position given that I have stated a million times.


If i wasn't trying to understand, i wouldn't ask you any questions at all. For a while, i said nothing as you went on and on about hillary clinton and john edwards being better suited for the presidency. That's fine. You're not in Obama's camp. You are in Hillary and Edwards's camp. Citizens have the right to support and vote for the candidates they feel will best represent your interests...

But then you effed up and admitted that you don't vote and attributed that to your Black Nationalist and Pan African leanings.

Except, if that were true, then you wouldn't have ANY dog in the race.

Nonvoting and Nonparticipation is logically consistent with a person who feels that a USA president is merely the figurehead representative of white/imperialist interests and thus is meaningless to the progress of BLack people. I get that.

But then, you've been whining about alleged unfair treatment of Hillary and John Edwards. I find it hard to believe that a Black Nationalist with Pan African leanings would feel compelled to love up Hillary.

Except, you say you don't vote, because you are a Black Nationalist with Pan African leanings...

I don't understand how, logically, this fits with sobbing over Hillary and John Edwards...

You seem to skip over the obvious race manipulation of the clinton camp, not to mention their hijacking of the dem party with "centrism", welfare reform, NAFTA, and the 3 Strikes Rule. You ignore the fact that hillary waa treated by the media as the democratic nominee for several months before even one ballot was cast. You act like Marian Wright Edelman aint split with Hillary over welfare reform. You act like folks can't see that NAFTA effected jobs in USA. You act like people didn't see that hillary had to resort to the white woman's ultimate trick, helpless tears, to reel in new hampshire voters. ... etc...etc...etc..


who's not trying to understand?
quote:
You don't know that Republicans are not helping to fund the campaign of Obama..


AND YOU DON'T EITHER!!! There you go cutting your neck again.

Since you keep talking about the Republican hate for Clinton... you keep shooting your, Clinton can beat the Republicans, Obama can't logic right in the foot. Some whites are more sexist than racist you say, yet you still come out your azz and say you think Clinton has a better chance to win even when she has so much going against her up to and including how she's been/being "N*ggerized" according to you. Those pieces of the puzzle don't fit.


But it's all because I/we just don't understand you, Noah... Roll Eyes



WHERE THE HELL IS FAHEEM!!?
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:

I think a prerequisite is that people have to WANT to understand my point. If any of you don't want to understand my point of view, you will never understand my point of view. It's my contention that many of you have the goal of attacking my point of view...which is fine. However, stop acting stupid about my position given that I have stated a million times.


If i wasn't trying to understand, i wouldn't ask you any questions at all. For a while, i said nothing as you went on and on about hillary clinton and john edwards being better suited for the presidency. That's fine. You're not in Obama's camp. You are in Hillary and Edwards's camp. Citizens have the right to support and vote for the candidates they feel will best represent your interests...

But then you effed up and admitted that you don't vote and attributed that to your Black Nationalist and Pan African leanings.

Except, if that were true, then you wouldn't have ANY dog in the race.

Nonvoting and Nonparticipation is logically consistent with a person who feels that a USA president is merely the figurehead representative of white/imperialist interests and thus is meaningless to the progress of BLack people. I get that.

But then, you've been whining about alleged unfair treatment of Hillary and John Edwards. I find it hard to believe that a Black Nationalist with Pan African leanings would feel compelled to love up Hillary.

Except, you say you don't vote, because you are a Black Nationalist with Pan African leanings...

I don't understand how, logically, this fits with sobbing over Hillary and John Edwards...

You seem to skip over the obvious race manipulation of the clinton camp, not to mention their hijacking of the dem party with "centrism", welfare reform, NAFTA, and the 3 Strikes Rule. You ignore the fact that hillary waa treated by the media as the democratic nominee for several months before even one ballot was cast. You act like Marian Wright Edelman aint split with Hillary over welfare reform. You act like folks can't see that NAFTA effected jobs in USA. You act like people didn't see that hillary had to resort to the white woman's ultimate trick, helpless tears, to reel in new hampshire voters. ... etc...etc...etc..


who's not trying to understand?


I am not in anyone's camp. I have not cast a vote or donated to any candidate. Don't you think that If I really in Clintons camp that I would have went and voted for her or Edwards and donated money to their candidacy?

You all are the ones who are IN CAMP. I am not in anyone's camp. I would rather see the Democrats than the Republicans in the white house. I would also prefer not to see a black person as president when the economy collapses or when we invade or bomb Iran or when and if there is an internal crackdown in America.
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:

Don't you think that If I really in Clintons camp that I would have went and voted for her or Edwards and donated money to their candidacy?

You all are the ones who are IN CAMP...


This is a nonsequitur since you have bemoaned the fate of Hillary Clinton in the politics and issues section of a black messageboard for what, several weeks, now?

The "in camp" comment indicates that your only agenda has been to love up hillary clinton, since you have obviously not taken the time to read the many Pro vs Con discussions amongst the particants on this board regarding Obama's positions, speeches, and campaign style. Roll Eyes

Just admit that you are Hillary's beeyotch and we can be done with this.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:

quote:
I'll give an example.

There are several organizations of which I'm aware that actively promote minority doctoral students (through monetary and other supports).

There are no non-academic strings attached. You can't guarantee that anyone will give back. But you act on the assumption that it's better to have 100 in the system through your efforts - even if only 10 "give back" - than none.


In that situation it sounds like they are giving to the community selflessly. Something that's rare of ANY organization regardless of political leanings or views.



I wasn't talking about the organization. I was talking about the minority scholars the organizations support.

There is no guarantee of anything.


That's true. But it's helpful not to hold people to guarantees but instead hold them to their actions. I've found that promises in life are worth relatively little, just be prepared for anything. Likewise with Black people who have achieved "success" I don't expect a guarantee from them.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
You don't know that Republicans are not helping to fund the campaign of Obama..


AND YOU DON'T EITHER!!! There you go cutting your neck again.

Since you keep talking about the Republican hate for Clinton... you keep shooting your, Clinton can beat the Republicans, Obama can't logic right in the foot. Some whites are more sexist than racist you say, yet you still come out your azz and say you think Clinton has a better chance to win even when she has so much going against her up to and including how she's been/being "N*ggerized" according to you. Those pieces of the puzzle don't fit.


But it's all because I/we just don't understand you, Noah... Roll Eyes



WHERE THE HELL IS FAHEEM!!?


So this is all you got? Some people ARE more sexist than racist. DO you dispute that? Over half the voters in the general election happen to be WOMEN braniac!!!! Obamas claim to fame is still disproportionately the produce of the overwhelming black support. Blacks are only about 10% of the general election electorate branic. Clinton has consistantly polled better in the key swing states that have decided the last few elections. Obama won a lot of red states which he will never win in the general election. Clinton has already been under constant attack and so her polling is not likely to drop from that. There is not a momentum based general election where Obama can use momentum to sway behavior in other states. There are no caucauses. Independents don't have a vote to waste by playing spoiler on the other side......ect.....ect.
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
PS....its funny how we digressed from the issue of whether a good person would change an evil system or whether the good person will become the lastest face of evil.


We digressed for lack of desire to deal in false dichotomies.

The fact is that ALL of us are products of that system and are involved/complicit to varying degrees.

Nobody has clean hands.
quote:
I would also prefer not to see a black person as president when the economy collapses

You may very well feel that way but none of that explains the things you've had to say about Obama - in particular your repeated attempts to call almost EVERY WHITE [DEMOCRATIC] CANDIDATE the "black candidate" comparing something they've said, etc. to some misinformation or distortion-laden idea you've presented about Obama.

Take the Nevada debate, for instance. Again, you made a thread based on a bogus argument you raised against Obama while at the same time applauding Clinton.

If you're not in anyone's camp and not anti-Obama then you would make the comments you have. It's just that simple.


.
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:

Don't you think that If I really in Clintons camp that I would have went and voted for her or Edwards and donated money to their candidacy?

You all are the ones who are IN CAMP...


This is a nonsequitur since you have bemoaned the fate of Hillary Clinton in the politics and issues section of a black messageboard for what, several weeks, now?

The "in camp" comment indicates that your only agenda has been to love up hillary clinton, since you have obviously not taken the time to read the many Pro vs Con discussions amongst the particants on this board regarding Obama's positions, speeches, and campaign style. Roll Eyes

Just admit that you are Hillary's beeyotch.


Support in politics manifest as a VOTE. Ones vote determines whose one's pimp is. Your the one turning tricks....sister.
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:

I think a prerequisite is that people have to WANT to understand my point. If any of you don't want to understand my point of view, you will never understand my point of view. It's my contention that many of you have the goal of attacking my point of view...which is fine. However, stop acting stupid about my position given that I have stated a million times.

I personally bared witness to media bia against Clinton and Edwards and the media is supposed to be an objective source. That was my PERSONAL experience and I am going to side ALWAYS, among strangers, to the side that is being treated most unjustly. People made interpretations about things the Clinton said that were contradictory to the way I interpreted them. So for me that was personally wrong, especially given their histories they deserved the benefit of the doubt. I would even defend you...that's right....I someone was mistreating you or you were getting a raw deal. I would defend a white person over a black person if the white person was getting the shaft. I have a higher calling than to just "blackness". It's "Fairness".

I did not like Hilary. I don't really care for her now. But in my opinion she has been treated unfairly while Obama has been condescendingly patronized, IN MY OPINION. Moreover, I value experience. It's consistent with my life. I would rather get in a plane when the pilot has experience than when the pilot lacks it. I would rather have surgery when the surgeon has experience than when the surgeon lacks it. When would I ever want to choose the person with the least amount of experience to impact in a major way upon my life? The only time that experience does not matter is when there is nothing on the line. Thus, my choice here is not inconsistent with my choices and decisions in life. I can only assume that most of you grant deference to the need and value of experience in major undertaking of your life....if it is a principled position.

I love my people but my hierarchy is not blackness. I am going to take the side that is disenfranchised by unfairness....because that is how my heart is. Most of the time that maps to the black side...but not always. In my opinion Clinton has been treated like a N!gger in this process, while Obama has been given the privileges of a white male.


I want to be clear.

quote:
I personally bared witness to media bia against Clinton and Edwards and the media is supposed to be an objective source. That was my PERSONAL experience and I am going to side ALWAYS, among strangers, to the side that is being treated most unjustly. People made interpretations about things the Clinton said that were contradictory to the way I interpreted them. So for me that was personally wrong, especially given their histories they deserved the benefit of the doubt. I would even defend you...that's right....I someone was mistreating you or you were getting a raw deal. I would defend a white person over a black person if the white person was getting the shaft. I have a higher calling than to just "blackness". It's "Fairness".


Did the media making Hillary being the presumptive nominee from the start didn't bother you?
Did having Barack's name mentioned on a news program and a picture of Bin Laden being flashed bother you?
Did Barack being accused of things that weren't true in the media by members of the Clinton campaign bother you?

Did these things bother you along with what bothered you about the things that happened to Clinton?

quote:
I did not like Hilary. I don't really care for her now. But in my opinion she has been treated unfairly while Obama has been condescendingly patronized, IN MY OPINION. Moreover, I value experience. It's consistent with my life. I would rather get in a plane when the pilot has experience than when the pilot lacks it. I would rather have surgery when the surgeon has experience than when the surgeon lacks it. When would I ever want to choose the person with the least amount of experience to impact in a major way upon my life? The only time that experience does not matter is when there is nothing on the line. Thus, my choice here is not inconsistent with my choices and decisions in life. I can only assume that most of you grant deference to the need and value of experience in major undertaking of your life....if it is a principled position.


You believe that Hillary has more experience to be president than Barack. Although like Barack, Hillary is only a Senator and hasn't balanced a state or national budget, commanded any armed forces or national guard, pardoned a criminal, issued a state of emergency, declared state or national martial law or any of the things that she might be able to claim had she been governor thus making her experience in contrast to Baracks more applicable.

quote:
I love my people but my hierarchy is not blackness. I am going to take the side that is disenfranchised by unfairness....because that is how my heart is. Most of the time that maps to the black side...but not always. In my opinion Clinton has been treated like a N!gger in this process, while Obama has been given the privileges of a white male.


You believe the wife of a former slave master in America is being mistreated by the overseers in the political process for the benefit of a slave.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
PS....its funny how we digressed from the issue of whether a good person would change an evil system or whether the good person will become the lastest face of evil.


We digressed for lack of desire to deal in false dichotomies.

The fact is that ALL of us are products of that system and are involved/complicit to varying degrees.

Nobody has clean hands.


Well...that might be true but I am not running as "Mr. CLean".
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:

Don't you think that If I really in Clintons camp that I would have went and voted for her or Edwards and donated money to their candidacy?

You all are the ones who are IN CAMP...


This is a nonsequitur since you have bemoaned the fate of Hillary Clinton in the politics and issues section of a black messageboard for what, several weeks, now?

The "in camp" comment indicates that your only agenda has been to love up hillary clinton, since you have obviously not taken the time to read the many Pro vs Con discussions amongst the particants on this board regarding Obama's positions, speeches, and campaign style. Roll Eyes

Just admit that you are Hillary's beeyotch.


Support in politics manifest as a VOTE. Ones vote determines whose one's pimp is. Your the one turning tricks....sister.


your mama taught me how...brother...and your pimp daddy seemed pleased.

but I digress....talking up candidates like hillary clinton is also "support" in the form of spreading the word and influencing others.
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
PS....its funny how we digressed from the issue of whether a good person would change an evil system or whether the good person will become the lastest face of evil.


We digressed for lack of desire to deal in false dichotomies.

The fact is that ALL of us are products of that system and are involved/complicit to varying degrees.

Nobody has clean hands.


Well...that might be true but I am not running as "Mr. CLean".



You're not running period.

You're taking cheap shots from the sidelines.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
I would also prefer not to see a black person as president when the economy collapses

You may very well feel that way but none of that explains the things you've had to say about Obama - in particular your repeated attempts to call almost EVERY WHITE [DEMOCRATIC] CANDIDATE the "black candidate" comparing something they've said, etc. to some misinformation or distortion-laden idea you've presented about Obama.

Take the Nevada debate, for instance. Again, you made a thread based on a bogus argument you raised against Obama while at the same time applauding Clinton.

If you're not in anyone's camp and not anti-Obama then you would make the comments you have. It's just that simple.


.


Negro....the mind is an amazing thing. People can hold more than one thought. I have many independent thoughts brother. I based my opinions on what I have bared witness to. The canidate that does the best, In my own damn opinion, of addressing black folks issues is the black canidate for me. You can't selectively cut and paste and form my opinion for me by feeding me what you want me to hear. You asked me what I would have him say and I answered that....he did not meet my criteria in this election cycle....none of the canidates did....but he did not do THE BEST.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
PS....its funny how we digressed from the issue of whether a good person would change an evil system or whether the good person will become the lastest face of evil.


We digressed for lack of desire to deal in false dichotomies.

The fact is that ALL of us are products of that system and are involved/complicit to varying degrees.

Nobody has clean hands.


Well...that might be true but I am not running as "Mr. CLean".



You're not running period.

You're taking cheap shots from the sidelines.


That is one of the perks of citizenship.
quote:
Over half the voters in the general election happen to be WOMEN braniac!!!!

How many women are Republican/conservative?

Note: Since Edwards has been out of the Democratic race, Obama has been close to Clinton when it comes to women voters... that is when he hasn't beaten her with that demographic.



quote:
Are women voters quitting the Clinton camp?

... First, Clinton was thought to have the nomination almost sewn up in large part because a majority of Democratic women, and especially black women, seemed to be going for her in a big way. Then Senator Obama won in Iowa, and black women shifted to him in droves.

Next, the conventional wisdom held that a majority of women were still going for Clinton, especially older women who had fought the feminist battles and wanted to see the glass ceiling shattered
at no less an office than at the White House. While their daughters may have jumped onto the Obama bandwagon, this thinking went, older voters are known to turn out more reliably than young voters, so Clinton was in good shape.

Obama turned that thesis on its head Tuesday. In the three "Potomac primaries," he edged out Clinton among women, winning 59 percent of the women's vote in Maryland and Virginia, including a majority of the women who earn less than $50,000 a year.
Just a few days ago, that group was believed to be a key component of Clinton's base.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0214/p25s05-uspo.html


19


quote:
Frown So this is all you got? Frown

Don't need much to debunk the bs you trot out. What we've seen here is more bs from you that's easily dispensed with.


Now, what you got?



quote:
Some people ARE more sexist than racist. DO you dispute that?

And that's going to help Clinton in the general election... HOW? Break that down for me Sherlocke.



.
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:

Don't you think that If I really in Clintons camp that I would have went and voted for her or Edwards and donated money to their candidacy?

You all are the ones who are IN CAMP...


This is a nonsequitur since you have bemoaned the fate of Hillary Clinton in the politics and issues section of a black messageboard for what, several weeks, now?

The "in camp" comment indicates that your only agenda has been to love up hillary clinton, since you have obviously not taken the time to read the many Pro vs Con discussions amongst the particants on this board regarding Obama's positions, speeches, and campaign style. Roll Eyes

Just admit that you are Hillary's beeyotch.


Support in politics manifest as a VOTE. Ones vote determines whose one's pimp is. Your the one turning tricks....sister.


your mama taught me how...brother...and your pimp daddy seemed pleased.

but I digress....talking up candidates like hillary clinton is also "support" in the form of spreading the word and influencing others.


Whose opinion on this forum have I changed? The one thing I have learned from exchanges on forums is that one rarely changes anyones opinion. So I do not believe that I have had any net effect on the campaign of Hilary Clinton. Yes....I will be her b1tch if it means that I am supporting the person who is being treated unfairly.
quote:
Negro....the mind is an amazing thing. People can hold more than one thought.

Yes and people can and do hold a number of conflicting, convoluted and contradictory thoughts even those that can't be reconciled. You can personally bear witness to that given the convoluted/contradictory mess that is your own damn thoughts... NON-SEQUITUR man.

Once again:
You may very well feel that way but none of that explains the things you've had to say about Obama

That's acknowledging that you hold more than one thought, Noah. It says one doesn't explain or isn't consistent with the other.


Come back when you find/develope some SKILLS...


.
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:

I am not in anyone's camp. I have not cast a vote or donated to any candidate. Don't you think that If I really in Clintons camp that I would have went and voted for her or Edwards and donated money to their candidacy?

You all are the ones who are IN CAMP. I am not in anyone's camp. I would rather see the Democrats than the Republicans in the white house. I would also prefer not to see a black person as president when the economy collapses or when we invade or bomb Iran or when and if there is an internal crackdown in America.


Based on your Republicans supporting Obama theory how would we know that you arent making donations and didnt vote?
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
Over half the voters in the general election happen to be WOMEN braniac!!!!

How many women are Republican/conservative?

Note: Since Edwards has been out of the Democratic race, Obama has been close to Clinton when it comes to women voters... that is when he hasn't beaten her with that demographic.



quote:
Are women voters quitting the Clinton camp?

... First, Clinton was thought to have the nomination almost sewn up in large part because a majority of Democratic women, and especially black women, seemed to be going for her in a big way. Then Senator Obama won in Iowa, and black women shifted to him in droves.

Next, the conventional wisdom held that a majority of women were still going for Clinton, especially older women who had fought the feminist battles and wanted to see the glass ceiling shattered
at no less an office than at the White House. While their daughters may have jumped onto the Obama bandwagon, this thinking went, older voters are known to turn out more reliably than young voters, so Clinton was in good shape.

Obama turned that thesis on its head Tuesday. In the three "Potomac primaries," he edged out Clinton among women, winning 59 percent of the women's vote in Maryland and Virginia, including a majority of the women who earn less than $50,000 a year.
Just a few days ago, that group was believed to be a key component of Clinton's base.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0214/p25s05-uspo.html


19


quote:
Frown So this is all you got? Frown

Don't need much to debunked the bs you trot out there. Once again, more bs from that's easily dispensed with.


Now what you got?



quote:
Some people ARE more sexist than racist. DO you dispute that?

And that's going to help Clinton in the general election... HOW? Break that down for me Sherlocke.



.


Most women are liberal. White Men dominate the ranks of Republicans. Yes, Obama will pick up more and more voters as it becomes apparent he will win. Some women will be pissed, however, over this process and all bets on their behavior is off. People made the argument, when the race was closer and Obama was behind, that blacks would be pissed and might not support Clinton. I noted then that it works both ways and that there are more women than black folks to be pissed.
quote:
I noted then that it works both ways and that there are more women than black folks to be pissed.

Yeah, women are so pissed they not only helped Obama beat Clinton in Maryland and Virginia but catapulted Obama into the lead (if I remember correctly). Roll Eyes


quote:
Most women are liberal. White many dominate the ranks of Republicans.

"Most" doesn't tell me how many. 51% could be liberal. But once that's off-set with a coalition of conservative women, conservative men plus sexist or anti-Hillary non-conservative men, etc. Well, your theory is struggling.


.
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
Over half the voters in the general election happen to be WOMEN braniac!!!!

How many women are Republican/conservative?

Note: Since Edwards has been out of the Democratic race, Obama has been close to Clinton when it comes to women voters... that is when he hasn't beaten her with that demographic.



quote:
Are women voters quitting the Clinton camp?

... First, Clinton was thought to have the nomination almost sewn up in large part because a majority of Democratic women, and especially black women, seemed to be going for her in a big way. Then Senator Obama won in Iowa, and black women shifted to him in droves.

Next, the conventional wisdom held that a majority of women were still going for Clinton, especially older women who had fought the feminist battles and wanted to see the glass ceiling shattered
at no less an office than at the White House. While their daughters may have jumped onto the Obama bandwagon, this thinking went, older voters are known to turn out more reliably than young voters, so Clinton was in good shape.

Obama turned that thesis on its head Tuesday. In the three "Potomac primaries," he edged out Clinton among women, winning 59 percent of the women's vote in Maryland and Virginia, including a majority of the women who earn less than $50,000 a year.
Just a few days ago, that group was believed to be a key component of Clinton's base.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0214/p25s05-uspo.html


19


quote:
Frown So this is all you got? Frown

Don't need much to debunked the bs you trot out there. Once again, more bs from that's easily dispensed with.


Now what you got?



quote:
Some people ARE more sexist than racist. DO you dispute that?

And that's going to help Clinton in the general election... HOW? Break that down for me Sherlocke.



.


Most women are liberal. White Men dominate the ranks of Republicans. Yes, Obama will pick up more and more voters as it becomes apparent he will win. Some women will be pissed, however, over this process and all bets on their behavior is off. People made the argument, when the race was closer and Obama was behind, that blacks would be pissed and might not support Clinton. I noted then that it works both ways and that there are more women than black folks to be pissed.



Why Liberal Women Dislike Hillary Clinton

NEW YORK, Dec. 7, 2007
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(CBS) The Skinny is Keach Hagey's take on the top news of the day and the best of the Internet.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They are like her, but they don't like her.

Such is the curious phenomenon of many educated, professional, liberal women of a certain age when it comes to Hillary Clinton, the Los Angeles Times reports. In fact, upper-middle-class women on the left are "historically her toughest crowd," the paper reports.

Why is this? The Times offers a handful of possibilities:

1) They're not as worried about job security as their more blue-collar peers (who are more pro-Clinton), so they feel free to judge the New York Senator as a peer.

2) They're disgusted by the fact that, while they struggled to break through barriers in the workplace, Clinton hitched her star to her man and followed him to the top.

3) They're disappointed by her support of the Iraq war and the fact that she has recreated herself as a centrist.

4) Women hold each other to an unrealistic standard.

5) She's trying to act too much like a man.

"What you may be hearing is the commitment to pacifism that some women associate with feminism," said Wendy Kaminer, a 57-year-old author and lawyer. "It's what I think of as the 'feminine' strain of feminism that sees women as bringing something to the table because they are not militaristic, work by consensus and don't play the boys' game. And Hillary is someone who has played the boys' game exceedingly well."

Jane Fonda perhaps summed up this view best in an interview with the LA Weekly last May, in which she called Clinton "a ventriloquist for the patriarchy with a skirt and a vagina." (It would be such a great quote, except when was the last time Hillary wore a skirt?)

The Times says Clinton has been working to overcome this skepticism from her sisters by appearing on "The View" and telling a Chicago audience that "I'm your girl."

Why this should endear her to feminist peers, I'm not quite sure, but something seems to be working. Support for Clinton among college-educated women jumped from 29 percent in June to 50 percent in October, according to the latest LA Times/Bloomberg poll.



©MMVII, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
I noted then that it works both ways and that there are more women than black folks to be pissed.

Yeah, women are so pissed they not only helped Obama beat Clinton in Maryland and Virginia but catapulted Obama into the lead (if I remember correctly). Roll Eyes


quote:
Most women are liberal. White many dominate the ranks of Republicans.

"Most" doesn't tell me how many. 51% could be liberal. But once that's off-set with a coalition of conservative women, conservative men plus sexist or anti-Hillary non-conservative men, etc. Well, your theory is struggling.


.


Its really a moot point. There are feminist in the United States who want to see a women president. In a close general election....these votes could make all the difference in the world. If they are not happy and they normally vote democrat.....thats a big problem. Also, remember that was not my ONLY point on why I don't think Obama can win.
That's just bs, Noah. Actual feminists are a marginal group in this society. But tell me about those SEXISTS again, Noah. Tell me about how the media is treating Clinton so unfairly, Noah. While you're trying to figure that out...


quote:
Overall, "54 percent of the electorate in 2004 were women... could [potentially] go up in 2008"

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0201/p01s04-uspo.html
quote:
77% of adults in the U.S. are registered to vote. Scarborough Research (SR)

29% consider themselves Republicans. (SR)

30% say they are Democrats. (SR)

10% consider themselves Independents. (SR)

....................................................

111 million people voted in the 2000 presidential election: 55 percent of the voting-age population, 60 percent of the citizen population and 86 percent of registered voters. U.S. Census Bureau (USCB)

114 million is the record for the most voters for an election, set in 1992. (USCB)

61% of women said they voted in the 2000 election, versus 58 percent of men.
(USCB)


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m4021/is_1_26/ai_112532371


Just a little bit to start establishing a baseline...



PS:

No moot points, Noah. Just points you can't contend with.


.
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
Over half the voters in the general election happen to be WOMEN braniac!!!!

How many women are Republican/conservative?

Note: Since Edwards has been out of the Democratic race, Obama has been close to Clinton when it comes to women voters... that is when he hasn't beaten her with that demographic.



quote:
Are women voters quitting the Clinton camp?

... First, Clinton was thought to have the nomination almost sewn up in large part because a majority of Democratic women, and especially black women, seemed to be going for her in a big way. Then Senator Obama won in Iowa, and black women shifted to him in droves.

Next, the conventional wisdom held that a majority of women were still going for Clinton, especially older women who had fought the feminist battles and wanted to see the glass ceiling shattered
at no less an office than at the White House. While their daughters may have jumped onto the Obama bandwagon, this thinking went, older voters are known to turn out more reliably than young voters, so Clinton was in good shape.

Obama turned that thesis on its head Tuesday. In the three "Potomac primaries," he edged out Clinton among women, winning 59 percent of the women's vote in Maryland and Virginia, including a majority of the women who earn less than $50,000 a year.
Just a few days ago, that group was believed to be a key component of Clinton's base.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0214/p25s05-uspo.html


19


quote:
Frown So this is all you got? Frown

Don't need much to debunked the bs you trot out there. Once again, more bs from that's easily dispensed with.


Now what you got?



quote:
Some people ARE more sexist than racist. DO you dispute that?

And that's going to help Clinton in the general election... HOW? Break that down for me Sherlocke.



.


Most women are liberal. White Men dominate the ranks of Republicans. Yes, Obama will pick up more and more voters as it becomes apparent he will win. Some women will be pissed, however, over this process and all bets on their behavior is off. People made the argument, when the race was closer and Obama was behind, that blacks would be pissed and might not support Clinton. I noted then that it works both ways and that there are more women than black folks to be pissed.



Why Liberal Women Dislike Hillary Clinton

NEW YORK, Dec. 7, 2007
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(CBS) The Skinny is Keach Hagey's take on the top news of the day and the best of the Internet.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They are like her, but they don't like her.

Such is the curious phenomenon of many educated, professional, liberal women of a certain age when it comes to Hillary Clinton, the Los Angeles Times reports. In fact, upper-middle-class women on the left are "historically her toughest crowd," the paper reports.

Why is this? The Times offers a handful of possibilities:

1) They're not as worried about job security as their more blue-collar peers (who are more pro-Clinton), so they feel free to judge the New York Senator as a peer.

2) They're disgusted by the fact that, while they struggled to break through barriers in the workplace, Clinton hitched her star to her man and followed him to the top.

3) They're disappointed by her support of the Iraq war and the fact that she has recreated herself as a centrist.

4) Women hold each other to an unrealistic standard.

5) She's trying to act too much like a man.

"What you may be hearing is the commitment to pacifism that some women associate with feminism," said Wendy Kaminer, a 57-year-old author and lawyer. "It's what I think of as the 'feminine' strain of feminism that sees women as bringing something to the table because they are not militaristic, work by consensus and don't play the boys' game. And Hillary is someone who has played the boys' game exceedingly well."

Jane Fonda perhaps summed up this view best in an interview with the LA Weekly last May, in which she called Clinton "a ventriloquist for the patriarchy with a skirt and a vagina." (It would be such a great quote, except when was the last time Hillary wore a skirt?)

The Times says Clinton has been working to overcome this skepticism from her sisters by appearing on "The View" and telling a Chicago audience that "I'm your girl."

Why this should endear her to feminist peers, I'm not quite sure, but something seems to be working. Support for Clinton among college-educated women jumped from 29 percent in June to 50 percent in October, according to the latest LA Times/Bloomberg poll.



©MMVII, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.


I like article and agree with it. But likewise, replace "feminist" with "pro-black", "her man" with "white liberals", "woman" with "Black", "vagina" with "Black face/features" and "patriarchy" with "White Supremacy/White Privilege" and you'll understand most of the anti-Obama arguments on this forum.

I know some will say "But a Black president will need White support to get elected", and I agree. But many Black people are quite honestly not much more trusting of White liberals than White conservatives, which is often why a high degree of White support from either side of the aisle is seen by some Black people as a negative sign.
More data for the baseline...

quote:
  • Reagan won 62 percent of the male vote and 56 percent of the female vote

  • In the most recent presidential election, unmarried women voted for John Kerry by a 25-point margin, while President Bush won the votes of married women by an 11-point margin -- a marriage gap of 36 points.
  • quote:
    In a... survey conducted for Women's Voices, Women Vote by the Democratic polling firm of GQR Research, a large majority of nonvoting single women -- 70 percent -- said they ''find politics and elections so complicated that it is hard to understand what is really going on." That helps explain why single women are much less likely to vote. It also explains why married women more often adopt their husband's political outlook -- which tends to be more conservative -- than the other way around.
    http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped...cs_of_female_voters/


    Now, one might think the "Male Influence" might be mitigated in a Male vs. Female race but I've yet to hear anyone talk about the new voters Clinton has brought into the process. It's Obama, from things I've heard, who has turned new voters on to the process. I'll check that and see how accurate that is but your "there are more women" = Clinton win logic is getting harder and harder to sustain.


    .
    quote:
    But likewise... yada... yada... and you'll understand most of the anti-Obama arguments on this forum.


    Shall we use this one, EP?

    quote:
    4) Women hold each other to an unrealistic standard.



    Also, please link us to where pro-Hillary women view support from men as a bad sign for Hillary. I mean, you want us to play replace/substitution. I just want to make sure it got that right... lol


    PS:

    How does Black people supporting Obama require "trust" in White liberals? What does one have to do with the other?


    .
    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    More data for the baseline...

    quote:
  • Reagan won 62 percent of the male vote and 56 percent of the female vote

  • In the most recent presidential election, unmarried women voted for John Kerry by a 25-point margin, while President Bush won the votes of married women by an 11-point margin -- a marriage gap of 36 points.
  • quote:
    In a... survey conducted for Women's Voices, Women Vote by the Democratic polling firm of GQR Research, a large majority of nonvoting single women -- 70 percent -- said they ''find politics and elections so complicated that it is hard to understand what is really going on." That helps explain why single women are much less likely to vote. It also explains why married women more often adopt their husband's political outlook -- which tends to be more conservative -- than the other way around.
    http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped...cs_of_female_voters/


    Now, one might think the "Male Influence" might be mitigated in a Male vs. Female race but I've yet to hear anyone talk about the new voters Clinton has brought into the process. It's Obama, from things I've heard, who has turned new voters on to the process. I'll check that and see how accurate that is but your "there are more women" = Clinton win logic is getting harder and harder to sustain.


    .


    I have to agree that while I think women tend to be more liberal than men, at least it used to be that way, I don't think it has much bearing on the Hillary campaign. Many women dislike Hillary because they see her as a female face on male domination, and some even think he's "too manly".
    Please see my edit... Also, please talk like you got some damn sense.

    quote:
    Well, depends on what one thinks "unrealistic" is.

    C'mon Bill Clinton... What the hell is this "definition of IS... is" nonsense? You claimed you liked and agreed with the article. You didn't quibble over the definition of "unrealistic" when it applied to how women treat each other.... sck


    quote:
    When it comes to politics it's hard to claim what's "unrealistic" with objectivity

    That's BULLSHIT!!!!

    When someone holds out some kind of expectation for Obama to do something that a president can't do... that's being unrealistic. For someone Black who expects Obama to forsake his quest to be the president of the United States and to campaign on something other than "unity" and/or coalition building with Whites and other demographics, etc. they are being unrealistic.


    Those are only a couple of objective measures.


    .
    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    C'mon Bill Clinton... What the hell is this "definition of IS... is" nonsense? You claimed you liked and agreed with the article. You didn't quibble over the definition of "unrealistic" when it applied to how women treat each other.... sck


    Bill Clinton? Did you just call me Bill Clinton? That's a horrible insult, you might has well have just called me the N-word. Mad

    Anyway, because I liked the article doesn't mean I agreed with every single solitary word. There are relatively few things in life that you can agree with word-for-word.

    quote:
    That's BULLSHIT!!!!


    Okay, objectively (that means with scientific evidence) lay out what is the realistic opinion to have about this election. It should be relatively simple if "realistic" political opinions/expectations can be objectively measured.

    quote:
    When someone holds out some kind of expectation for Obama to do something that a president can't do...


    Like what?

    quote:
    that's being unrealistic. For someone Black who expects Obama to forsake his quest to be the president of the United States


    Who said that? I never said Obama should forsake his quest to be president. Don't put words in my mouth.

    quote:
    and to campaign on something other than "unity" and/or coalition building with Whites and other demographics, etc. they are being unrealistic.


    Okay, objectively prove that a Black candidate can ONLY win on that platform. When I say "objectively", I mean provide a thesis/hypothesis, graphs, scientific data, surveys, etc. The whole nine yards.

    Edit:

    quote:
    Also, please link us to where pro-Hillary women view support from men as a bad sign for Hillary. I mean, you want us to play replace/substitution. I just want to make sure it got that right... lol


    Apples and oranges. Because some Black people view Obama's White fandom as troubling doesn't mean that many women also feel the same way about Hillary's male fandom. Black people and [White] women (which is what I'm mostly thinking of by "women") have our own separate minds.

    quote:
    PS:

    How does Black people supporting Obama require "trust" in White liberals? What does one have to do with the other?


    Obama is a Democrat, he needs White liberal support to get elected. I didn't say that Black people require trust from White liberals, Obama does.
    Last edited {1}
    ABC news just looked at Illinoise Senate record of Obama and concluded that his voting record shows an unwillingness to stick his neck out on tough decisions. They reported that he simply voted "Present" on many of the divisive issues. Another noted that he had higher political ambitions early on. A Republican noted that he liked working with him and he respected his position.....although disagreeing with it.

    Now.....I have been of the opinion for awhile that Obama will not make the tough decisions. Not attending the SOBU was like voting "present" in the IL Senate.

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