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i was watching "chat the planet" on link tv, and they were talking about immigration policies in both the us and australia. to talk about this they brought together 15 teenagers each from both countries. in both cases, most of the teenagers from both counrties were either immigrants or of immigrant ancestry except for the aborigine in australia and the cherokee from the us. the only people whom you could call "black": the australian girl was from zambia, and the american dude was an immigrant from benin.

but wait a minute, i figured: what about african americans? we can't call ourselves native americans, but at the same time, we can't call ourselves immigrants either! why? because our ancestors weren't immigrants, they were brought here in bondage to serve as free and expendable agricultural labor, and nothing else. that's probably the reason why i can't see myself as kin to a west indian (and an african? hell no!).

however, we are told to identify with american values, values that are based on the traditions of the immigrants (whites, asians, latinos, west indians, and africans) and their own children who rule this nation. its these values, traditions and standards by which this nation was founded, and we'd be fools to think that such values, known collectively as the american dream, could actually work for us slave descendants.

when are we going to get it through our thick skulls that we cannot, never could, and never will be able to identify, at even the least, with the american dream? i dont give a damn what mlk said about acceptance, tolerance, integration, or all that b.s. that doesn't help a lick for us. we must come to the realisation that america (excluding the indians) was built exclusively for the immigrant who came to this country simply for himself, his family, his posterity, and nothing more. it would never be fit to this nation's history for the progeny of the expendable labor that built this nation in its infancy to actually get some side benefits called freedom and prosperity, because then that would make us immigrants, right?

so really i'm jealous of that guy from benin or that australian girl who immigrated from zambia, cause, hell, theyre immigrants.
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Many Black people need to rise above the daily ignorance created in the US, Canada, Australia or European countries. The lack of black African Diaspora patriotism I read in your post rayne is a key to our problem. Certainly, wars and poverty has caused many of the Africans, black Caribbean and African-Latinos to leave our countries in search for a 'better' life in the West. But we have 3 choices: 1- go back to our country and possibly get killed by C.I.A squads for minerals control 2- starve to death with our families or 3- stay in the west and suffer discrimination and injustice (sometimes at the hands of people who we share the same skin color with) just to be able to get a day's work to feed our family back home.

Many of Black immigrants in the West have gone through the physical abuse and mental abuse you African-Americans have endured. If you carefully look at us the "Just Comes" in the US, Canada, Australia or European countries you can tell that most of us have been abused and come from the lowest end of the economic ladder. As a poor man reared in the slums of Port-au-Prince Haiti, I migrated to the US to overcome poverty and make a major impact in the black African Diaspora. Yes, Haiti and the Black African Diaspora can use my knowledge, and help from here the US.

Although African-Americans are descendants of African slaves, you still need to acknowledge the other Blacks of the Diaspora who were or were not ripped from their ancestral homes by European traders. The African-American present-day problem is related to other Blacks of the Diaspora. The Genesis of its creation began with the first struggles against the Europeans who treated us wickedly all the same!

How exactly is the CIA and other usual suspects responsible for much of Black Africa problems? Answer this question honestly. Indigenous Africans are crying out and seeking our help, but we refuse, as the West seeks to decapitate and render us insignificant. The more we dis-associate with the black African Diaspora the less will have a functioning Black race and respect from other nations. I try not to belittle the African-Americans plight but always there has been a well-orchestrated effort to separate us.

You as an African-American, can assist all Africans, West-Indians and African-Latinos with your might, strength and faith. As African descended people in this world, we should come together with indigenous Africans to make our race proud once again.Your testimony made me think but I had to put this subject into a Pan-African perspective.


[This message was edited by Afroman on January 28, 2004 at 12:51 AM.]
2 AfroMan:

I read your reply to my post, and I understand the plight that we both find ourselves in, you being a Haitian immigrant to the US, and me a descendant of American slaves. I know alot, maybe too much, about Haiti, or Hayiti: how the slaves of what was formerly known as Saint-Domingue, being subjected to brutal and intensely savage oppression by the French sugar barons (not unlike here in America with cotton, unsurprisingly), bloodily repaid in kind as they rose up in the only slave revolt in modern history that actually worked. However, 212 years after the Bois-Caiman inauguration of the Haitian Revolution, and 200 years after the soon-to-be emperor Gen. Jean-Jacques Dessalines (in no way comparable to Toussaint L'ouverture) had declared the independence of the world's first African-ruled republic and the Western Hemisphere's second nation to get independence from a European power, the people of the Repiblik dAyiti have come to despise their own government because of the ever-inherent graft of each head of state. Furthermore, your country's economy is in a shambles because of the forces that you mentioned in your post.

That's why you decided to come to America in the first place - so that you could start life over for yourself and your children. However, the "ignorant (ignant) black honkies" that most African-Americans are (at least the ones I know here in the exact middle of Georgia) don't really care. They just say, without thinking about what is our real plight, that it would make sense to them to stay in America and identify with this nation, because "it is such a God-blessed nation that is so (damn) prosperous and so (damn) free". Really, I love to despise these people because they call themselves "black" without knowing that black is just a friggin color and cannot show who they really are.

That's why I've decided to do just like you did with the United States and immigrate to either New Zealand or Australia. I know what you mean about oppression by the powers of the Western world of both Africa and the African Diaspora. However, I don't think, rather I know, that Africa is a dying continent (famines, AIDS/HIV, the civil war in the DRC), and that when a group of African Americans decided to take up residence in Ghana (whose kingdom of Asante was a major illicit, and active contributor to the Transatlantic Slave Trade), the people and government of that nation treated them badly. Thus, obviously, they don't like African-Americans , especially the ones who are light-skinned like me, in Africa. So I'd rather not pay a visit to whatever petty little African puppet nation of some "former" colonial power (as Nigeria is to Britain) they came from and say "hi! I'm African-American! We're brothers!" (they'd probably give me a swift kick in my ass back to America!). Obviously, from the things I've heard and read, they don't like the descendants of slaves like you and me. They'd probably give more respect to you as you have managed to maintain a good bit of your African culture (me, only a shadow of what used to be, and probably still is, a slave culture).

So because of the greed and avarice of African royalty who sold our ancestors asses to the empire-building Europeans, you may still have a history, heritage, and culture to be proud of as you are now an immigrant to America, but us, hah! We have nothing on what you Haitians have. See, even though we both, down the line, ended up here through tragic and brutal acts of greed and avarice, we have to know that there is a difference between us because of the history we know. To the stupid white people in America, you may look like "one of dem African niggers from Voodooland", but to me, youre just another immigrant who came here to find freedom and redemption from your poverty-stricken slave past.

And I feel that I must do the same thing for the exact same reasons. I couldn't go back to Africa (and no, that's not because I have never been to Africa) because it was they who rejected their own (me), not the Haitians who found themselves in the same s@#$hole as us, fighting to stay alive, while we here in America simply gave up.

So I'm glad and I'm jealous for you finding at least some sort of freedom here in America, even though here they treat Haitians like dirt (as they always have) because of their ethnicity, culture and religion (oh yes, Voodoo. That has received the worst rap in American media more than any other religion, and even most African-Americans believe the media bullshit that is pulled out on Voodoo.). But hey, at least, materially, its better than Haiti right now.

But yeah, I've decided to immigrate to either NZ or Australia for the exact same reason as you came here from Haiti: to find freedom and redemption from your ancestors' slave past, for yourself as well as for your children.

PLZ, holla back, AfroMan! And Happy 200th Birthday to your nation, too.
Oh yeah, I forgot, AfroMan:

(1) The West Africans (refering specifically to West Africa) couldn't possibly ask for our help, as they contributed to the slave trade the most, thus causing their own downfall and the downfall of their own continent.

(2) I wasn't lacking any patriotism in the African Diaspora, if there could be something called patriotism. I just feel that, as we Afro-Diasporian Americans were slaves, that's all that our history can show: that we once provided free and easily expendable agricultural labor in the early days of this nation, but then once America became industrial, we were freed and then pushed aside to live out our days as an ethnic group as sidenotes in this nation's history. And now we are being told that we should be proud of this great nation that "our" forefathers built. That's the biggest joke if I have ever heard one!!!

(3) I am dissillusioned by the popular stance taken by Afro-Diasporian Americans. We retain the "Black Church" because it is such a vestige of our history and existence as slaves here in America. However, I feel that it may be the same institution that may be perpetuating our current status as entertainers for white people in America. I mean, usually, the role that we are usually associated with in American society are as singers, dancers, preachers, rappers, sports stars (i.e., basketball), and the all-important comedian ("dumb black guy", as in the "Proud Family" on Disney Channel, which I despise). Basically, we are simply buffoons. At least your fellow Haitians in America haven't fallen into that pitfall yet, but unfortunately, you all might not be far behind us.

(4) If you have been released from prison because of a crime, would you be dumb enough to stay within that area where you both committed the crime and went to prison because it is the safest place to be? HELL NO!!! You would find a way to get your ass out of that area, and find someplace where people don't know you or anything about you or your kind so that you could start a new life for yourself. However, that's the problem with Afro-Diasporian Americans: they know that the image of the black slave (and I lower-cased "black" for a reason) is burned into the American Experience, yet most of them are dumb enough to stay here because it is the "mos freest, mos rich" nation to live in. That's another reason why I've decided to immigrate to NZ or Australia: to get away from these dumb "black" people (referring specifically to Afro-Diasporian Americans whose ancestors were Ammerican slaves, not Haitians, West Indians, or Afro-Brazilians).

There, I have let it all off of my chest.
I don't mind when white people say stupid shit about Africa, but when it's black people doing it saddens a lot. Rayne, don't make the list of the black people who are ignorant about their ancestors! For your information, everywhere around the world there have been and there still are group who sold their own people, Africa is no exception. The slavery that existed in Africa was not frequent as in other parts of the world. During pre-colonial times, the slavery that existed in Africa then was very minor and more like indentured servitude. You must also realize, it is European imperialism for the most part, that has caused sharp divisions between Africans and it is the whites that displace our folks and caused harm to them. There is no Ashanti, Dahomian or other West African nations conspiracy why we really got sold as slaves. Please keep your emotions aside and try to begin to think with rationale instead of all that build up anger history and untruths that certain historians taught you.

You mention the hostility of some Africans towards Diaspora Africans, and you are right about that, but you must also realize that the majority of Diaspora Africans, (although sometimes claiming Africa liberation and repatriation) remains in the Diaspora and refuse to go and create business in the Motherland just like you do. You are scared of the instability of Africa, also of the people in Africa itself based on your hypothesis and flawed observations through the western media. Thus, the indifference and sometimes hatred of some Africans towards Diaspora Africans who never set any foot in Africa and never reached out to build bridges with them.

But keep in mind, some West African nations have been trying to appease the disquieted ancestors and their descendants of the Diaspora for a while now. The following site is just one of their efforts to acknowledge the wrong they participated in. Not every native African's heart is cold. The conference then and those held after it attest to the good in humanity.

I think our ancestors deserve the same acknowledgement as European-Americans display towards their own even in spite of their recorded barbarism waged on their own and other peoples. European-Americans revere their ancestors. Their monuments and mentioning of their dead at every occasion attest to this practice. But why do many African-Americans and many Diaspora Africans lack this honor and dignity? Healing is the first step towards nation building!!

As you know I'm Haitian, I'm also Beninese. I'm also Beninese because Haiti relate to Benin and Africa in a bigger context. There is a strong connection between our Vodou and Benin. How do the Beninese feel about us? Well, I know in their smile and fierce hospitality they are pride of how we kept our African culture, dances, music and art so did others West Indians and Black South Americans. In Benin and the West Coast of Africa we feel at home, I know will you feel too.

Rayne, I think your problem is deeper than your beef with the natives Africans, after living in a country where the government is the one stabbing you, I know a lot of Haitians, West Indian, native Africans and African-Latinos who feel the same way as African-Americans do. But don't fool yourself Canada, European countries, Australia and New Zealand exploit the Black race through economical and political structures too! And presently, the Melanesian and Black Aboriginals throughout the South Indian and Pacific nations are victims of the genocidal attacks of the European invanders and settlers for their own benefit! They don't show you that on television programs planned and produced by white people. There is nothing worth towards our development and cultural self-presentation in any white nations!

And a lot of time I remember thinking we Haitians have enough to deal with already, trying to survive and everything, so I can understand why you wouldn't go out of your ways to fight other Black people battles. That's perfectly understandable. That's until I shifted my thinking from selfishness (too bad for our common enemy those racists white bastards!) to our ancestors that suffered. I saw that they kept crying out to the same racists US and its allies governments for freedom and equality. I look back at blacks thorough history and seeing mutilated black families hanging on a tree with all these white towns folk standing around spectating like it was a circus show or something. I also read historic accounts of how between 1880 and 1920 King Leopold II of the Belgians was responsible for the murder of 100 millions of Africans in his quest for control of the natural resources of the Africans in their own continent. Leopold II's exploitation of the Congo and type of genocide in Africa was not equaled even by Adolph Hitler and his Nazis at the height of their rape, mutilation and massacre of Europeans Jews. And I wander what if our ancestors came today and saw us in our freedom and saw what was going on? Would they be pleased at our freedom? If those slaves from back in the day were here today saw our way of life these days what would they say!!

As a Haitian-Beninese, I am feeling betrayed by the US irresponsible posture (their destabilization tact) vis-à-vis the democratically ELECTED president Aristide, and their support for the gang of terrorist-minded elements and the pseudo-opposition party Lavalas. Combine that with the International community particularly the European Union and we Haitians have a big problem on our hands! But it is not okay to blame/scapegoat other Haitians or Diaspora Africans for what's going very ugly in Haiti. Instead of looking into the US and European governments fight to take away our people pride, we are being indoctrinated into becoming more potent (worst and more dangerous) than those white racists ones we are currently dealing with. Is this anti-African patriotism really Black people's future in the making?

Of course NO! 200 years from now, a group of poorly equipped, poorly trained, outnumbered, uneducated, hungry, but determined Haitian soldiers win their biggest battle against the world's mightiest military power of the time. They won it because they had the spirit of winning. Just as the Black American heroes: Elijah Muhammad, Malcolm X, Huey Newton, MLK and countless other African liberation fighters worldwide who died so that we can understand the importance of unity in the Black Diaspora and the Motherland. Our ancestors and elders showed the spirit of winning! They did not see the issue for their disadvantage. They didn't complain that they were who sold by their own people. They didn't complain they were poorly armed, and uneducated, they only wanted and believed they could win! With this spirit I came to the United States. I celebrate 2004 with great joy and hope and I'm going to work to free Haiti and the Black African Diaspora from poverty. If our ancestors prevailed, this should serve us as example that we can prevail upon anything.

So Rayne, show your spirit of victory by celebrating 2004 with Haitians. And then work for the imperative of Black liberation worldwide. Black people are not respected in white nations. Everyone is on their own, that should be the theme of Black people. All for Pan-Africanism -"L'Union fait la force!".


[This message was edited by Afroman on January 30, 2004 at 01:50 AM.]
Why would any black person want to go to New Zealand or Austrailia, does it get any whiter than that? I think these two countries were ones that supported Bush's unjust war in Iraq. I know your lightskinned but come one, running from your people and letting propaganda and a few ignorant brothers deter you for the real goal. You must understand ignorance is not confined to a continent, its global. As I look around this nations capital i see brothers and sistas from all over the world including africa, and they are coming here to further their lot. In my years of knowing and interacting with many brothers and sistas from all over the continent and throughout the diaspora, i know the spirt of african liberation is just as strong in them as it is in us and the yern for us to come joing the liberationg struggle on the continent. So i dont really by that africans dont like african american crap, pan africanism is alive and well and maybe stronger than ever, join the battle dont run from it!

dear afroman:

i read your reply, and i find alot of truth in what you mentioned concerning my reference to new zealand and australia. thanx.

now my question is, and i know alot of people who just might (note: "might") feel the same way that I do: where do we go from here as a people?

and im refering explicitly to the entire African Diaspora when it comes to this.

in fact, first of all, what do we show in order to represent the collective and entire AD to the world? I suggest that an organization, call it the Sovereignty of the African Diaspora (SAD, maybe a bad idea), be formed. It would be sorta like the UNIA under the late Marcus Garvey.

Here's how I picture it: an organization that would be the legitimate representative of the descendants of the AD to any nation (like the US)or international organization (like the UN). Such ventures that can tie all descendants of the AD, from the United States through Haiti to Brazil, together under one banner (maybe the bendera ya taifa, or "good ole red, black, and green", would work), could include a media that reflects the interests and opinions of the AD, as well as educational programs that would educate all underadvantaged Afro-Diasporians.

I feel that such an organization, or "nation within many", could effectively represent all Afro-Diasporians, especially those who reside in the United States, like me, or Haiti, like you, or in Brazil, where the largest number of ADs live.

So, if you feel that all descendants of the African Diaspora should unite and represent themselves for themselves, then I think that this is the best way to do it. If we are ever going to succeed at freeing your country, Haiti, from the endemic conditions which plague your nation, as well as free us who are descendants of American slaves from being turned further into a bothersome sidenote to this nation's history, or being further stabbed in the back by the friggin' government, then, as you said in your reply, we must stand up for our own Diaspora, as nobody in the Western world is even willing to help us, and the Africans already have their own full plate of endemic and rampant problems. Nobody will be able to help us but our own selves, and as long as the Afro-Diasporians here in the United States continue to do the shit that they do in order to entertain these dumb-ass white people, all possible moves to unite us all, including you in Haiti and me in the US, together will be deterred.

I lack no patriotism in the AD. It's just that, just like this dude who wrote this article said, we must make a change for ourselves to ourselves by ourselves, or else we will find ourselves doing like we always do: running in place.

L'Union Fait la Force.
I wholeheartedly agree with you Rayne. As you know, charity begins at home so a united African Diaspora will begin from our hearts. To help the entire Diaspora, Black people around the world and in Africa must be proud of their origins and respect each other. The time has come to quit long talks and start acting even in the smallest ways to show Black people what solidarity means and work towards a common goal of development. A united African Diaspora will only succeed if we renew our minds!

Not to mention that almost everywhere in the world a white people have had a had in mistreating people. Have you ever seen the movie Rabbit Proof Fence? The Australian/New Zealand white population constructed a plan that involved taking aboriginal women to breed out generation by generation: leaving the aboriginal men to die out. Mistreatment and a will to keep everyone else submissive to them is everywhere. Like Afroman said....Unity.
'it would never be fit to this nation's history for the progeny of the expendable labor that built this nation in its infancy to actually get some side benefits called freedom and prosperity, because then that would make us immigrants, right? -- rayne

What, and who do you credit with your circumstance, including the "woe is me" rant? Clearly, something, and someone got you to where you are.


Jim Chester


You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

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