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quote:
A Modern Day Moses and Aaron?
Posted 06-16-06
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Adeebafolami.com (AFC) continues its series of featured interviews with Brother Abdul Wazir Muhammad (AWM), Emeritus Minister for the Western Region of the Nation of Islam (NOI) under the direction of Min. Louis Farrakhan (MLF). Here, he discusses the relation between the Moses/Aaron biblical story and how, in NOI theology, that represents the modern role of The Honorable Elijah Muhammad (THEM) and Min. Farrakhan.

(AFC) - How has the Moses/Aaron story played out in modern times with THEM's role in leading the so-called American negro in America after 400+ years of servitude? It is interesting that even the scholars say it was not possible that the children of Israel spent 400 years in slavery in Egypt, and there are no known people in history who fulfill that prophecy/story as the Black people in America do. Still and yet, there are not very many Black people who think much of that. Why is there so much blindness to our place in history?

(AWM) - First of all, let's take a good look at the promise that God would, in the last days, bring a man like Moses. In order for there to be a man like Moses, that would necessitate [that] the people who Moses was sent to be in a specific position. If there was no slavemaster named Pharaoh, there would not be any necessity for a man named Moses. If there were not a people that were in bondage for a particular period of time being rendered to a particular state, then there would not be a need for a man like Moses or a Moses in particular.

The best thing to do is to try to look at how the Bible is written and one of the ways is a picture. What you have in the story of Moses is a picture and prophecy of what would be taking place in the last days. If a man goes to a tailor because there's a suit that's a size 44 and in reality he's a 42 or 40, that suit does not fit so he has to alter it. For the person who, in fact, that suit is designed for, he's the right size, no alterations are necessary. What has been done, which makes it hard for us to realize, [is] that this picture really is of the so-called Negro and the white man has tried to alter the suit that belongs to us to make it fit himself. So the first thing we have to do to claim the suit, to put it on to see if it fits, is to deal with a disclaimer because the man who has claimed it, it does not fit him.

No Jews, according to history, have ever been in bondage for 400 years. I think it was [Anwar] Sadat, Jimmy Carter and Menachem Begin at Camp David, if I remember correctly. Begin started off with how remarkable it was for the children that had been in bondage in Egypt land and, if I remember correctly, Sadat told him, hold it..... He said there was no record in Egypt of there ever being any people in bondage to them ... You have to study that scenario and what the scripture actually says. It speaks not of Egypt so much as the city that is spiritually called Egypt, so to get into specifics, there's no people that have ever been in bondage 400 years but we so-called Negros have been because we were brought here in 1555 and in 1955 that marked 400 years of being in bondage. Therefore, we are in need of a man like Moses because the condition we've been put in, it would take God himself to come with a solution; to straighten out our condition.

Moses, according to the book, met with God face to face, like a neighbor to a neighbor and a friend to a friend. This is the claim that THEM had: that he met with God. It's a claim that I believe and it's a claim that is being borne out by the events taking place. None other than God could bring to bear what has been brought to bear on America to force them to come to a position where, not only will they let us go but, the so-called American negro that's enamored by white folks and [their] power and all of the riches, etc., to really be able to want to separate himself from that. [Then] to go into a land ... away from the slave master and all of his comforts and into a condition where we have to strike out for ourselves and do like Castro had to do as far as him being able to establish a homeland autonomously for the Cuban people.

THEM said, if you want to deal with Egypt in the book, replace it with America and if you want to deal with Pharaoh, replace it with president because Pharaoh comes from a word which means king or ruler, just like czar means king or ruler, Cesar is king or ruler. Well, president is synonymous with all of those terms if you bring it into modern times. You replace Egypt with America, you replace Moses with THEM, the children of Israel with the negro - who is very much like a child in dependence on his slave master. Then the oppressive people of Pharaoh, we really have to say [is] the government of America and those who adhere to [its] policies regardless to whether or not they're just.

(AFC) - In the biblical story, at first Moses was hesitant to take on the mission he was given by God and one of the reasons he gave was that he had a knot in his tongue or he wasn't eloquent of speech, or he had a speech impediment. Do you recall THEM ever speaking on how that applied to him as the modern day Moses?
(AWM) - If you listen back to the teachings of THEM, he made things so very plain that a fool could not err, if he could, with all of his education and if he could get past the fact that THEM was a very plain spoken person. He wasn't, how you say, eloquent, he used to use terms like, instead of the 'supreme being,' he would say 'supremey being.' There's just so much of what he said was so very, very plain and very, very clear but it was an indication of a man that had not been gifted with the education of the slave master.

He was a man without letters and he spoke like a plain spoken person so he did not believe that the people would accept him with the impediment of speech. I'm saying impediment in the sense that he did not come from the class of orators like the talented tenth that we have. Then there's the need for a helper, Moses was given a helper in the book. God said that he made Moses a god to Pharaoh and made Aaron his prophet.

If you really want to get at the question you asked, you need to understand that the Bible and Holy Quran actually verify one another. One of the purposes of the revelation of the Holy Quran was to verify truth of the Bible and the impediment of speech that Moses had was really his relation to his people and [them] alone. His chest had to be expanded or broadened [and] that's how the message of THEM has been broadened by The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan because it's now so much more inclusive.

At one point Jesus was telling his disciples to go only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, but later [they were] told to go into the whole world and preach the gospel. That's the nature of revelation. There are people who specifically are targeted that are the focal point of God's mercy. He goes to those people, straightens [them] out, then utilizes [them] to take the message of God to the ends of the earth and to all of the people who are going to be the recipients of God's mercy. That message has to be extended so they can have the advantage of the mercy of God. If you read in Quran he was called a mercy to all the nations.

Prophet Muhammad went specifically to the Arabs, Moses went specifically to the children of Israel, Jesus went specifically to the lost sheep but then later the message was broadened so that it included all humanity because the book says his mercy encompasses all things. So the expanding of Moses' breast to the point where his message was getting where it would reach all the people, when you get outside of the so-called Negro and what we need then that was part of what's being said in Quran and Bible, if you understand it.

MLF, if you look at how the people in church are beginning to accept the word of THEM coming from [him] because he is taking the words and the wisdom of THEM and putting it in words that the people in church are able to embrace. Likewise, the people on the campus – the intellectuals - when they look at THEM and listen to him, they don't want to listen to him because he sounds like an unlearned person and their education makes them too proud to be able to see the wisdom coming from a man that speaks in such plain terms. But when MLF teaches them, he does not have a peer, there's not an intellectual that can stand up and say that because of what he has gained at Harvard he can [argue] with MLF and be successful.

A good example is Dr. Cornel West. On more than one occasion he has challenged MLF and as a result, has come up against one that wielded the word in language that [West] could not overcome. If you were listening to MLF on a radio show in Chicago, as well as the one from New York, he has explained what came as a result of this covenant [Tavis Smiley's, "The Covenant with Black America"] and Cornel West and all those who took exception to the truth that MLF brought, there was confusion in their acceptance of what he had to say.

Well, he straightened all that out. If you listen to those radio shows, you will hear how very plain it is to have an eloquent man be able to bring the message in the eloquence that is acceptable to the intellectual minded so-called negros [whom], in fact, we do need. They, [however,] need divine guidance and they're getting it from Moses or rather from Moses' helper, his brother Aaron. If you want to say Aaron, just say Farrakhan and you're doing all right.

(AFC) - Thank you.

- To be continued -


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quote:
Originally posted by Dusty Elbow:
Dont understand but if their is a modern day MOSES can someone tell me what is AMERICAN WISDOM since MOSES was trained in EGYPTIAN WISDOM.

Thanks.


i'm not clear on what you say you don't understand. is it various points in the article that you don't understand, or is it just that you don't understand the question you raised?

rather than read this kind of piece and then find points of contention in it or the concept being advanced, why don't we start out with what can be agreed upon.

do you agree or disagree that blacks in america are the only people in known history who spent 400+ years in a condition of servitude and slavery in a strange land?
quote:
do you agree or disagree that blacks in america are the only people in known history who spent 400+ years in a condition of servitude and slavery in a strange land?


Agreed.

I only look at the visible habits of our people in ranks.

And since many blacks are so-called Christian, the New Testament is where our people see ourselves relating to most.

Being REBORNED from the CURSETH law set by God through MOSES into the commandment set by Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is considered Savior.

Not Moses, Not Aaron, Not The Honorable Elijah Mohammad (spelling), and Not Minister Louis Farakkhan (spelling)

The prophecies are still being fulfilled.

hat
quote:
Originally posted by Dusty Elbow:
Agreed.

I only look at the visible habits of our people in ranks.

And since many blacks are so-called Christian, the New Testament is where our people see ourselves relating to most.

Being REBORNED from the CURSETH law set by God through MOSES into the commandment set by Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is considered Savior.

Not Moses, Not Aaron, Not The Honorable Elijah Mohammad (spelling), and Not Minister Louis Farakkhan (spelling)

The prophecies are still being fulfilled.

hat


okay. so we agree that our people are the only ones in known history to have spent 400+ years in servitude in a strange land.

do you think it's just coincidence that such a story was recorded long ago in the bible, or do you view the biblical story as a prophecy that was fulfilled in what happened to our people?

if it's a prophecy, i think christians who spend most of their time in the new testament and pay little attention to the old, can't possibly have their eyes opened to what god is doing today. therefore, it would seem to be futile to base how we operate on their understanding, or i should say their MISunderstanding.

they are looking for "jesus christ" but "christ" (meaning the crusher) was not to come on the scene until the end times. christians think "christ" was jesus' last name but the jesus/isa of 2000 years ago was not christ. he did not fulfil what the christ was to do and even himself prophesied of one to come after him who would guide into all truth. the biblical jesus knew he was not "the one." but most christians don't even know or accept that so how can they be the standard for our people? in some ways, they're like the biblical children of israel who at first rejected moses because they were too caught up in the cultures, traditions and religions of the oppressor that they'd adopted while in servitude.

also, do you accept that the root, the original, untampered with, scriptures (bible, torah, quran) are part of the ancient egyptian wisdom you previously mentioned?
not a problem. if the biblical jesus knew he was "the one," why would he admit there was another coming after him who would "lead into all truth?"

if you look at the matthew 24 scene, it talks about there will be wars & rumors of wars, earthquakes and famines in all places, etc. but be not alarmed for the end shall not come until.....

he spoke of "the end" as tho it were some time in the future and not as tho it was the time he was living in then. the story/prophecy of jesus is 2-fold: the one who lived in biblical times and the one who would be on the scene at the end of the world, or in the last days.

that aspect of things is brought up in part 2 of the above interview and it will be posted soon.
Interesting, taking another cultures(the oppressors fromt he Hyksos to the modern European) mythos and applying it to our current circumstances.

Even when I was in the FOI I saw the falicy in this... I joined for organizational purposes and the political activiy.

I wonder when we will deal with 'our' myths instead of the plagerized and mistranslated ones of the oppressors.

I don't come down hard on the FOI and Bklack Isrealite stuff like this though because at least it get's folks thinking about a certain level of liberation...but complete liberation is when a a spiritual one will be achieved. SO this stuff can at least fuel the material fight.
quote:
Originally posted by 1milehi:
do you think it's just coincidence that such a story was recorded long ago in the bible, or do you view the biblical story as a prophecy that was fulfilled in what happened to our people?



Some aspects but how the Israelites came to Egypt as freemen who left ISRAEL under FAMINE CONDITIONS to later become under BONDAGE to the Egyptians, DOES NOT FOLLOW OUR STORY OF BEING FORCIBLY TAKEN FROM AFRICA.

quote:
Originally posted by 1milehi:
if it's a prophecy, i think christians who spend most of their time in the new testament and pay little attention to the old, can't possibly have their eyes opened to what god is doing today.


Agreed.


quote:
Originally posted by 1milehi:
therefore, it would seem to be futile to base how we operate on their understanding, or i should say their MISunderstanding.


Full agreement.

quote:
Originally posted by 1milehi:
they are looking for "jesus christ" but "christ" (meaning the crusher) was not to come on the scene until the end times. christians think "christ" was jesus' last name but the jesus/isa of 2000 years ago was not christ. he did not fulfil what the christ was to do and even himself prophesied of one to come after him who would guide into all truth. the biblical jesus knew he was not "the one." but most christians don't even know or accept that so how can they be the standard for our people? in some ways, they're like the biblical children of israel who at first rejected moses because they were too caught up in the cultures, traditions and religions of the oppressor that they'd adopted while in servitude.


That Jesus DID NOT INDICATE IN DIRECT WORDS TO ANYONE TO WORSHIP HIM as SUCH.

As you and I perceive, it's all PERCEPTION.

Your intpretation of Moses and the children of Moses I agree with, Moses RECOGNIZED it but the children of Israel DID NOT.

You have to RECOGNIZE being CAUGHT UP.

Moses did.



quote:
Originally posted by 1milehi:
also, do you accept that the root, the original, untampered with, scriptures (bible, torah, quran) are part of the ancient egyptian wisdom you previously mentioned?


SOME OF IT IS TO ME IS EGYPTIAN WISDOM and SOME OF IT DEALS WITH ROMANS which the ANGLO-SAXON and the ROMAN CATHOLIC race receive it WORLD IDEAS from.

CURRENTLY WE LIVE IN A WORLD DOMINATED BY ROMAN WAYS.

Because of that, the BIBLE shows how to deal in SUCH an ENVIRONMENT.

With or without the BIBLE you still have to develop SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT to get the BIG PICTURE hidden from current VIEW.
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
Interesting, taking another cultures(the oppressors fromt he Hyksos to the modern European) mythos and applying it to our current circumstances.


well, if the root & essence of all scripture is from the original people and was only co-opted, distorted and tampered with by people of other cultures, then what? apparently the tampering was done so that masses of people would be thrown off track about who the real people of god are, where they would be at a certain time, what they would look like, etc. the experiment seems to have worked - wouldn't you say?

quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
I wonder when we will deal with 'our' myths instead of the plagerized and mistranslated ones of the oppressors.


we can start now. what are some of our myths that need to be dealt with? instead of pointing to what you feel is in error, why not come with what you feel should be emphasized? wouldn't you agree that if more people would do that in a convincing manner, there would be less focus given to what they think is off base?

quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
I don't come down hard on the FOI and Bklack Isrealite stuff like this though because at least it get's folks thinking about a certain level of liberation...but complete liberation is when a a spiritual one will be achieved. SO this stuff can at least fuel the material fight.


this is good. that's all this topic was about - to get people to thinking. whether they can agree with NOI theology or not, there are people in their midst who really believe that blacks in america are the fulfillment of scriptural prophecies laid out long ago.

there really was a man, THEM, who saw himself as the modern day fulfillment of the biblical moses. not only that, he also saw himself as the fulfilment of the biblical elijah, jesus and the quranic muhammad. whether people can relate or not, there was a man who based his every effort off of his beliefs. and he had impact in this country. i'd like people to start asking the question "why"? and take another look at these things and the POSSIBILITY that what that man stood for, taught and believed is not myth but reality. JUST A THOUGHT!
Posted 06-21-06

quote:
A Modern Day Moses and Aaron? - Part 2

--------------------------

The following is the second part of an Adeebafolami.com (AFC) interview conducted with Brother Abdul Wazir Muhammad (AWM), a long-time NOI minister still active and based in Los Angeles California where he assists Western Regional Minister Tony Muhammad. He continues the discussion on certain aspects of NOI theology related to The Honorable Elijah Muhammad's (THEM) role and that of his national representative, Minister Louis Farrakhan (MLF).

(AFC) - There are people who view themselves as the true followers and students of THEM and they reject MLF's role. They think they are the only ones who are the upholders of everything related to Elijah Muhammad and they cannot accept that Min. Farrakhan is to THEM as Aaron was to Moses in the Bible. What would you say to that type of mentality?
(AWM) - I think if you approach [a] thing from different angles you show the picture in a much clearer manner. In the Holy Quran, Moses asked Almighty God Allah for a helper from among his brethren. When he asked for a helper, in the Arabic language he asked for 'wazir' which means helper, aider, burden bearer, a representative of a king or government. He was granted that helper [in] his brother Aaron.

I had always wanted the name once I first heard [what] 'wazir' meant. One day I was looking at that name and I recognized that was MLF, that is what Moses was asking and MLF really is the answer to that. THEM trained and taught him like he taught the rest but he taught him up close. [MLF] was responsive to everything THEM did in teaching and training him to the degree that God has blessed him with the attributes, characteristics, or persona to be able to respond on that level... Out of all of the ministers of THEM, MLF was head and shoulders at the head of the class. There was not even any comparison with him and any of the people who were sent in to do what God had chose him to do.

Malcolm [X], in his time, was nothing but a forerunner: one whose job it was to show the mistakes and prepare the good in the man who would help THEM with the task that God had given him. I'll give you an example - [a brother] who was a truck driver for the Nation of Islam .... he wanted to be a leader. He was not a minister, he wanted to be the one that took the place of Moses [THEM]. The way that he self-aggrandized himself, he [has now] promoted himself to a position that is not only equal to Moses but higher. He was not even one that was trained by Moses or given to THEM in order to do the work that had to be done when he [THEM] went to the second part of his mission which is the right hand of God, the exalted Christ, the one who Allah has put everything under except himself. He's the one who's crushing the wicked right now and he is the one that is preparing the rest of that work that Moses has to represent to the people, but he's gonna do it through Aaron.

The Quran says that they all want a book spread out. What that's saying is that they all want to be the messenger. It's a jealousy on one part because you look around and see the work that is being done on behalf of THEM and see who it is that you can parallel or rival in any kind of way, the accomplishments of [MLF]. It should be very clear to the world who has the right to that position.

Brother Minister John Muhammad [THEM's blood brother], who has made his transition, he was devoted and with his brother from day one in the mission. You could see that spending all of his life trying to help his brother and being steadfast and faithful to his brother, that he could have some feeling of wanting to do that work but [he was] 75. For example, the work that Minister Tony [Muhammad] is doing, he's the Western Regional Minister which, in fact, at one point I was doing that. Now, this job calls for not only the attributes that Min. Tony has that I do not possess, [being 74 years old], but it also calls for a younger man with the power and strength to get down against the adversity that's in front of our face. He has the physical and mental strength to do that because God has evolved this post to that position.

Min. John, who was THEM's brother, was old. To be able to finish this work MLF has gone through all kinds of things that Min. John did not have the strength to be able to do. The job did not fall on him. The job fell on him to do just what God blessed him to do and may the peace and blessings of Allah ever be with that brother.

However, there are people on the outside right now, they're younger naysayers and it's because they themselves want to be in that position or sometimes it's because [they] know what has got to be done [but] people are not going to step up and do that unless they're ready for the task.

(AFC) - What would you say to the many people who believe that THEM died in 1975 and they think those who think he's still alive have become Christianized and are as spooky as the Christians who believe that Jesus of 2000 years ago is still alive in heaven.

(AWM) - There's really not a parallel. There are some things that were misunderstood about the history of Jesus. There are two people involved when you start dealing with the man Jesus. There's the historical Jesus, the prophet Isa Yusef, [who] was on the scene before the prophet Muhammad. Then there's a prophetic Jesus that the Quran and Bible both speak about, the man that would be on the scene in the last days. We have made the mistake, because of the way this was represented to us, of taking those two as one and we've been believing some fantastic foolishness about that man Jesus. He's two different people.
Today, we're beginning to understand and know exactly who THEM is. What THEM taught us did not speak of anything but him being with us in the last days and guiding us to where we are to go. He didn't speak of his death. If we really understood what the scripture was talking about, the scripture was all talking about THEM and the work he would do among us. They used to sing a song in church, Sweet Little Jesus Boy, I didn't know who he was. THEM is that prophetic person that was announced to be among us that would do his work. He labored 44 years and after that time, his mission, there's a second part they call The Christ – they say Jesus Christ. Well, Jesus was not the Christ. Christ means to crush and crushing the wicked is the title of the job that is put on THEM in the second half of his mission. You see him executing today all those things that he promised according to the word of God. He's the one that's bringing about these earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, all of these things in the weather – these things are being brought by THEM.

Call it spooky if you will but the things that I see, in reality are not spooky at all. What was spooky about an earthquake that took place when the great American past time was being manifested in the [1989] World Series? This particular time, the series was between Oakland and San Francisco and while everybody was concentrating on having that big time, earthquake came and caused such damage to that bridge between Oakland and San Francisco that many deaths occurred. That sounds like perfect timing to me to get a message across, that doesn't sound like no spooky interpretation of events ...

It's not ancient history, it's the history we're living since THEM has made his ascension to the right hand of God where he is in control of those things to bring this country down. His words are being manifested as truth and we're seeing it right in our time and we're gonna see more of it. Everything he has told us about that has not been made manifest yet, there's enough evidence of what's going on that it's coming to that fruition.

The fall of the dollar. He told us that at one point the dollar was gonna be devalued or falling to the point where we could light our cigars with it if we were smokers. You can see now what's happening. Where you used to be able to buy a gallon of gas for 0.19 cents, I think I spent $20 and I got six gallons of gas. Many of us are having to leave our cars at home and get a bicycle. A decent loaf of bread costs you $3.59. You used to get a loaf of bread for way under 0.50 cents. The dollar today, I guess it would be [worth] something like 0.12 cents, it might be 0.25. I don't think so but it's down just like THEM said.

Even now, Iran is talking about going on a different standard than the American dollar and trying to get the rest of the people to do so. What's gonna happen if they do that? Right now the American dollar is not worth the paper and ink that's used to print it. The only value is that some people still have confidence in it and as soon as that confidence erodes – cause it's not backed by anything – it used to be backed in silver. Now it's a bank note, instead of a silver certificate which said payable to the bearer on demand one dollar in silver. It doesn't say that anymore. All those were taken up and all these bank notes have been printed and as long as the people take it, it's worth something.

That's just part of it but you can look at everything that was to be fulfilled by Jesus and THEM is fulfilling it. We understand better what scripture is and we do have belief in what is happening but our belief is not based on something of no knowledge.

I remember Imam Warith Deen [Muhammad] saying that many people think there is no knowledge in belief. There's plenty knowledge in belief, it's just not a complete knowledge but it's enough to sustain you to know that your belief is becoming a reality. It's just a matter of you getting the rest of the facts but if you look, your belief is supported by what you see. The completion of it all will be with the freedom of the black man and the destruction of the powers of America. It's right in front of our face. The nation has been born and America's falling and falling fast.

(AFC) -Thank you.
quote:
Originally posted by 1milehi:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
Interesting, taking another cultures(the oppressors fromt he Hyksos to the modern European) mythos and applying it to our current circumstances.


well, if the root & essence of all scripture is from the original people and was only co-opted, distorted and tampered with by people of other cultures, then what? apparently the tampering was done so that masses of people would be thrown off track about who the real people of god are, where they would be at a certain time, what they would look like, etc. the experiment seems to have worked - wouldn't you say?


The entire worldview that African religion gives has been distorted, not just 'who' started everything. Check the thread 'THE HERITAGE OF THE GODDESS' formore details, and some of my other posts.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
I wonder when we will deal with 'our' myths instead of the plagerized and mistranslated ones of the oppressors.


we can start now. what are some of our myths that need to be dealt with? instead of pointing to what you feel is in error, why not come with what you feel should be emphasized?


I do ALL THE TIME...on other threads. I've posted numerous threads on this subject so it was uneccesary to do that on this one.

quote:
wouldn't you agree that if more people would do that in a convincing manner, there would be less focus given to what they think is off base?


Not when people don't respond to it.

quote:
[quote]Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
I don't come down hard on the FOI and Bklack Isrealite stuff like this though because at least it get's folks thinking about a certain level of liberation...but complete liberation is when a a spiritual one will be achieved. SO this stuff can at least fuel the material fight.


quote:
this is good. that's all this topic was about - to get people to thinking. whether they can agree with NOI theology or not, there are people in their midst who really believe that blacks in america are the fulfillment of scriptural prophecies laid out long ago.

there really was a man, THEM, who saw himself as the modern day fulfillment of the biblical moses. not only that, he also saw himself as the fulfilment of the biblical elijah, jesus and the quranic muhammad. whether people can relate or not, there was a man who based his every effort off of his beliefs. and he had impact in this country. i'd like people to start asking the question "why"? and take another look at these things and the POSSIBILITY that what that man stood for, taught and believed is not myth but reality. JUST A THOUGHT!


Used to be member of the NOI when I was in my late teens/early twenties. I've debated(and still do when I visit) with the Black Isrealites on Venice beach all the time. I've moved past the Helio Biblio and back to our West African roots for quite a while now.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
I am not a member of the NOI, nor do I subscribe to a great deal of its teachings; but I've notice something that I find troubling.

In the above thread, there are several references [by members of the NOI] to the organization's greatest teacher as "THEM", i.e., referencing a group outside of one's self.

Is the irony lost on this point?


The Honorable Elijah Muhammad ...

But yes I think I see your point... Smile
that's funny. how can you see the point when it was made because of a misunderstanding of what THEM stands for? and then it is completely inaccurate to say that "In the above thread, there are several references [by members of the NOI]...."

excuse me, but there was only ONE member of the nation who was interviewed and who gave his comments. where does this "several references" by NOI members (plural) come from?

what "point" do you see in all that honest brother? seriously.

and kweli, THEM in the interview stands for The Honorable Elijah Muhammad. and i find it strange that you say you are "troubled" ..... LOL .... by something in the article. what are you troubled about boo? is it keeping you up at night? LOL

you all are funny!
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

The entire worldview that African religion gives has been distorted, not just 'who' started everything. Check the thread 'THE HERITAGE OF THE GODDESS' formore details, and some of my other posts.


i did peek into that thread. it will take me more time to digest the info since i can't really say i relate to the concepts, but i won't knock it. to each his/her own.
1MileHi,

quote:
and kweli, THEM in the interview stands for The Honorable Elijah Muhammad. and i find it strange that you say you are "troubled" ..... LOL .... by something in the article. what are you troubled about boo? is it keeping you up at night? LOL


I got that. It is the basis of my observation and comment. But do you get what I'm saying?

Do you not see the irony of one referring to, as truth, the teachings of someone whom is denoted THEM? That is: not of US?

True, in this article there was only one person interviewed; however, I have seen others [in the Nation] that similarly reference THEM.

What I find troubling [re: the reference to THEM] is that the article is referring to the historical place of Black people versus the historical distortion/inaccuracy promoted by others. Yet, the reporter of the piece is comfortable crediting the source of truth as, the apolitic, THEM.

Does it keep me up nights? No, Child. Not at all ... But then not much regarding mythology does. They are interesting stories that express historical points and metaphysical/allegorical guidance.

But I won't knock anyone's belief system. To each his/her own.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
1MileHi,

quote:
and kweli, THEM in the interview stands for The Honorable Elijah Muhammad. and i find it strange that you say you are "troubled" ..... LOL .... by something in the article. what are you troubled about boo? is it keeping you up at night? LOL


I got that. It is the basis of my observation and comment. But do you get what I'm saying?

Do you not see the irony of one referring to, as truth, the teachings of someone whom is denoted THEM? That is: not of US?

True, in this article there was only one person interviewed; however, I have seen others [in the Nation] that similarly reference THEM.

What I find troubling [re: the reference to THEM] is that the article is referring to the historical place of Black people versus the historical distortion/inaccuracy promoted by others. Yet, the reporter of the piece is comfortable crediting the source of truth as, the apolitic, THEM.

Does it keep me up nights? No, Child. Not at all ... But then not much regarding mythology does. They are interesting stories that express historical points and metaphysical/allegorical guidance.

But I won't knock anyone's belief system. To each his/her own.



K4R, very well said .... brilliant observation ...
Peace...



quote:
Do you not see the irony of one referring to, as truth, the teachings of someone whom is denoted THEM? That is: not of US?



I see the irony myself..I think we as blacks need THEM, since the U.S. has not provided anything in the way of guidance. Perhaps we need those outside of our condition to help raise us...The grand ole US has certainly had a chance to make it happen...perhaps it is time to give THEM a chance...


The Huckleberry,

Kai
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
1MileHi,

I got that. It is the basis of my observation and comment. But do you get what I'm saying?

Do you not see the irony of one referring to, as truth, the teachings of someone whom is denoted THEM? That is: not of US?


i must be the slow one in the bunch but no, i don't get your point. you are saying that elijah muhammad is not of "us" as in black people? and even elijah muhammad received "his teachings" from someone else so, IMO, they are not "his." just as any teachings of truth are not the sole possession of any one person or group.

quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:True, in this article there was only one person interviewed; however, I have seen others [in the Nation] that similarly reference THEM.


okay, then you agree that it was not accurate for you to state there were "many references in this thread."

quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:What I find troubling [re: the reference to THEM] is that the article is referring to the historical place of Black people versus the historical distortion/inaccuracy promoted by others. Yet, the reporter of the piece is comfortable crediting the source of truth as, the apolitic, THEM.


will you quote the specific parts of the article/interview that you are talking about? that should clear a lot of things up and make your point stand out better.

when you talk about the "reporter" of the piece, are you talking about brother abdul wazir muhammad or the interviewer, who would be the reporter of the piece)?

and i still don't understand why one should be "troubled" by anything in the article. i'm really not understanding that. are you bothered that THEM is equated to "the christ" - is that what specifically troubles you? are you a christian and hold to the belief that the jesus of 2000 years ago is the one who's going to return in the last days? is that why you are troubled? if so, that is clear to me and i can understand that, however, i really don't understand your above reasoning.
quote:
i must be the slow one in the bunch but no, i don't get your point. you are saying that elijah muhammad is not of "us" as in black people? and even elijah muhammad received "his teachings" from someone else so, IMO, they are not "his." just as any teachings of truth are not the sole possession of any one person or group.


1MileHi,

Okay, one more shot ... What is the literal opposite of the word "US"? Them. Right? My observation merely reflects the irony of Our truth being presented by them. [Try reading this literally Confused]

quote:
okay, then you agree that it was not accurate for you to state there were "many references in this thread."


Yes, I agree. But that is completely beside my point.

quote:
i'm really not understanding that. are you bothered that THEM is equated to "the christ" - is that what specifically troubles you? are you a christian and hold to the belief that the jesus of 2000 years ago is the one who's going to return in the last days? is that why you are troubled? if so, that is clear to me and i can understand that, however, i really don't understand your above reasoning.


No, I am not bothered about the role of the minister or that of jesus. And, no I am not christian. But never-the-less, these points are also beside my point.

I must say, you've been so inciteful on so many other threads, I can't see why you are having trouble seeing the point on this one. Maybe, there is truth to the adage, "Blinded by the light"?

Based on Kai's response, I'm sure that he understands me point. And maybe because Kai is a member of the Nation, he can explain the point that I am speaking to?

BTW, Kai ... I agree with your response. We as a people do need a dose of thought hailing from outside of our mainstream, in order to get us where we should be.
ok. thanks kweli. i was asking you to clarify your point but if you don't want to - that's fine. as far as "them" and "us" - as inciteful as you are, i don't know why there is reason to stumble over an abbreviation (THEM) that does not stand for "them." but anyway - okay. evidently it's not a very significant point and little more time needs to be spent on it, right?
quote:
ok. thanks kweli. i was asking you to clarify your point but if you don't want to - that's fine. as far as "them" and "us" - as inciteful as you are, i don't know why there is reason to stumble over an abbreviation (THEM) that does not stand for "them." but anyway - okay. evidently it's not a very significant point and little more time needs to be spent on it, right?


Okay ... Last Time. {Then I'll just conclude that you are being intentionally obtuse}

My entire point was to point out the irony in the article's presentation of Our truth being credited to them.

Being literate, I understand fully that THEM [as referenced in the article] is an abbreviation. I also understand that while "THEM" is meant to stand for The Honorable Elijah Muhammad; T-H-E-M spells the pronoun that references someone outside of one's group.

If you get it great; if not, oh well. But then [in the quiet of your room or in the depth of your prayers] ask yourself why you are having such a problem grasping such a simple concept.

[Ignoring something does not erase its truth]
well, maybe it's a male thing kweli. that of all the things one could pick out of the interview to focus on, someone would choose the abbreviation THEM, ignore what it stands for in the interview and then spin it for another reason.

but do your thing. i'm not interested in going down that road but maybe some others are.

"Ignoring something does not erase its truth" - yes, that's true and can be said to be the case of whatever truths you are ignoring in order to pursue your THEM theory. LOL

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