A Good Black Man

Another piece extolling the virtues of the Black man written by a Black woman. I wonder if there is a companion "Good Black Woman" piece written by a man. Not effing likely. I'd like to see the piece about women who don't turn heads, don't meet every item on a man's checklist, don't necessarily cook/clean/pamper/have sex with you because she is 'comfortable' showing her love in other ways and how Black men salute and thank that behavior.

It really raises my blood pressure to see this tired-ass theme of "You just aren't recognizing the good men out there because you have your eyes fixed on finding some flashy celebrity type." Some of us are older than 12 and aren't looking for a man wearing a shitload of tacky jewelry and driving some ridiculously obnoxious car with diamond hubcaps and whatever other nonsense. Furthermore, even broke, simple-minded, underachievers will treat you like crap when they get ready to, so it's not like you can save yourself a world of trouble by exclusively dating manual laborers or some other unglamorous position in life. The only fairy tale is whatever world this lady is living in that she sees good Black men under every rock and all around her. I'd like some of what she's smoking.

Black women continue to, at their core, have all the faith in the world in Black men. Always have. We go to our blasted graves single.

I think I'll scream if I see another piece castigating Black women for being single ("don't judge him because he was only 'comfortable' giving you a blade of grass for your birthday!" "you're just not looking hard enough! have you checked out the prison system??" etc). Men out there really and truly believe that if they just got the opportunity to be alone with her and sharpened their skills enough, they have a realistic chance of marrying Halle Berry. THAT is a set of people that need a talking to about living in Fantasy Land. Meanwhile, if a Black woman has any sort of aspirations for a man even a small step above "Kwazimoto, The Hump-Backed Day Laborer," she is being ridiculously picky and living in a fairy tale world and that's why she's single and she doesn't appreciate Black men.

Ugh, please.

(Nothing against you, Sandye. Don't want you to feel like I'm shooting the messenger! )

Frenchy...

I agree with you. I'm tired of women trying to always make excuses for black men, but yet stay so quiet when they disrespect us. Now don't get me wrong I'm all for the brothers and like my mama always says they have two strikes against them from birth, "They're black and they're male." Yeah well almost the same could be said for black women, we got those same strikes against us in white america. I just want to see us get some of the time and appreciation the males do. That's all I'm saying.

Sandye,
Thanks for the lovely post!

quote:

Originally posted by Frenchy:
Another piece extolling the virtues of the Black man written by a Black woman. I wonder if there is a companion "Good Black Woman" piece written by a man. Not effing likely. I'd like to see the piece about women who don't turn heads, don't meet every item on a man's checklist, don't necessarily cook/clean/pamper/have sex with you because she is 'comfortable' showing her love in other ways and how Black men salute and thank that behavior.

It really raises my blood pressure to see this tired-ass theme of "You just aren't recognizing the good men out there because you have your eyes fixed on finding some flashy celebrity type." Some of us are older than 12 and aren't looking for a man wearing a shitload of tacky jewelry and driving some ridiculously obnoxious car with diamond hubcaps and whatever other nonsense. Furthermore, even broke, simple-minded, underachievers will treat you like crap when they get ready to, so it's not like you can save yourself a world of trouble by exclusively dating manual laborers or some other unglamorous position in life. The only fairy tale is whatever world this lady is living in that she sees good Black men under every rock and all around her. I'd like some of what she's smoking.

Black women continue to, at their core, have all the faith in the world in Black men. Always have. We go to our blasted graves single.

I think I'll scream if I see another piece castigating Black women for being single ("don't judge him because he was only 'comfortable' giving you a blade of grass for your birthday!" "you're just not looking hard enough! have you checked out the prison system??" etc). Men out there really and truly believe that if they just got the opportunity to be alone with her and sharpened their skills enough, they have a realistic chance of marrying Halle Berry. THAT is a set of people that need a talking to about living in Fantasy Land. Meanwhile, if a Black woman has any sort of aspirations for a man even a small step above "Kwazimoto, The Hump-Backed Day Laborer," she is being ridiculously picky and living in a fairy tale world and that's why she's single and she doesn't appreciate Black men.

Ugh, please.

(Nothing against you, Sandye. Don't want you to feel like I'm shooting the messenger! )

It's not a fairytale - Do you know any married couples? If so, look at them - the husband & wife both have quirks/flaws. If the marriage is successful, they learn how to adapt, compromise & accept these "human" qualities in their partner. The point of the piece is that women should examine their "wishlists" for a man to determine whether the list has the essentials for a healthy relationship. Money, looks, and status can come and go, but compassion, understanding, passion, friendship, responsibility and communication (short list I know, but I think you get the idea) are what carry a meaningful relationship.

Slightly : What has made you so jaded about relationships? It seems like you really believe that Black men are your adversary, determined to destroy & demean you.

quote:

Originally posted by Frenchy:
Furthermore, even broke, simple-minded, underachievers will treat you like crap when they get ready to, so it's not like you can save yourself a world of trouble by exclusively dating manual laborers or some other unglamorous position in life. Meanwhile, if a Black woman has any sort of aspirations for a man even a small step above "Kwazimoto, The Hump-Backed Day Laborer," she is being ridiculously picky and living in a fairy tale world and that's why she's single and she doesn't appreciate Black men.
Ugh, please.

quote:

Originally posted by ddouble:
Money, looks, and status can come and go, but compassion, understanding, passion, friendship, responsibility and communication (short list I know, but I think you get the idea) are what carry a meaningful relationship.

Ddouble, when the mortgage and car note arrives, we can't pay them with "compassion" and "friendship." So what we (Black women) require, in addition to compassionate mates, are responsible fathers and husbands who understand the importance of fullfilling their roles as men. Not surprisingly, an increasing number of Black women today are expressing their frustrations with having to constantly overlook, ignore, adjust, adapt to, and compensate for areas in Black men's lives that seem to be worsening. Therefore, I think Frenchy as well as others have legitimate concerns and reasons for being "bitter." Presently, compared to Black women, Black men are more likely to find someone to meet (and exceed) all of their expections for a mate (e.g., educated, attractive, and prepared for life responsibilites) whereas Black women are forced to "accept flaws," "lower their standards," and "overlook problems," which can be really frustrating and heart-breaking. I'm not interested in participating in a Black male-bashing discussion, but I do understand Frenchy's point of view.

Sandye, you tried......


Any offer of Hope........ "REEEE-JECTED"


As usual, negativity and cynicism is neurotically embraced and adhered to.

quote:

Originally posted by ddouble:
It's not a fairytale - Do you know any married couples? If so, look at them - the husband & wife both have quirks/flaws.

The fairytale reference was not in regards to marriage or how people interact with each other inside the bounds of a relationship.

"The only fairy tale is whatever world this lady is living in that she sees good Black men under every rock and all around her."

quote:

The point of the piece is that women should examine their "wishlists" for a man to determine whether the list has the essentials for a healthy relationship.

The point of the piece is to applaud/salute Black men and blame Black women for not being able to find mates. This is not a "Keep looking girls and have faith!" It's more like "Let me outline for you women all that is wrong with how you approach dating." That message comes from every which angle and THAT is what I find frustrating. It is not even a valid consideration that maybe something is wrong with men. It's the constant "You're too hard on Black men! You don't support that Black man! You don't love the Black man! You love the wrong Black men! You expect too much! Stop believing your lying eyes! etc" and then after the tirade comes to verbal blow job for Black men "Oooo, my widdle cutie wootie Black men. We wuv you!!!" It's aggravating. It's counter-productive. And it's not based on any sort of reasonability. To lift up one, you don't have to tear the other down.

quote:

Money, looks, and status can come and go, but compassion, understanding, passion, friendship, responsibility and communication (short list I know, but I think you get the idea) are what carry a meaningful relationship.

Money, looks, status, compassion, understanding, passion, friendship, responsibility, communication, etc are all very important. And I don;t think there is a woman alive with more than 2 brain cells who doesn't already know this and incorporate it into her daily life. If anything, there should be a plethora of forwards and books and notes and whathaveyou aimed at men written by men saying "Nevermind that phat ass! Can she keep you intellectually stimulated for the next 50 years?" We don't see that though. We don't see the constant mass pressure on men to stop looking at all the stereotypical things that makes people attracted to someone else. It's a double standard. And furthermore, it's a completely impossible ideal for women to live up to. I'm not supposed to care at all about how a man looks, how much money he has, whether he pampers me or shows his appreciation for me, etc? But let me come on this board or go to my family or my friends and announce that I have taken up with a very compassionate, understanding, loving homeless leper with no intention of ever moving out of his carboard box on Broadway and watch the world recoil in horror over how a woman can through her life away like that. It's unreasonable, this message being put forth to Black women.

quote:

Slightly : What has made you so jaded about relationships?

I don't think I'm jaded. I think I'm realistic and I'm very sensitive to picking up on sexism. Unfortunately, a lot of talk about relationships (especially Black relationships) is just overrun with these sexist ideas and double-standards and it pisses me off that I don't think a lot of people recognize what I think is fairly blatant. I don't hate men. I hate sexism.

quote:

It seems like you really believe that Black men are your adversary, determined to destroy & demean you.

I don't think they all are or intend to be my adversary but I certainly don't shy away from pointing out occassions where the shoe fits. In general, I don't think men are cognizant of how destructive/demeaning their behavior is to a woman and how they wouldn't even think about treating/approaching/viewing a fellow man in the same way. And when men don't care to recognize it it means nothing changes. And when women buy into it, it means there's another generation of girls who will internalize all of that disregard and disrespect. That's sad. Not hopeless. But very sad.

quote:

Originally posted by detroit1:
Sandye, you tried......


Any offer of Hope........ "REEEE-JECTED"


As usual, negativity and cynicism is neurotically embraced and adhered to.

What about that is hopeful for a Black woman?? I think it's completely ridiculous that a piece where the better part is telling Black women what is wrong with us is given a blind pass as some ray of hope.

Are people even reading this thing?!?!

Sandye .. that was abosolutely beautiful!

Thanks for sharing! I've been missing your words of enlightenment and wisdom around here ... but I'm glad you still peek in every now and again!

Forgeting for a moment about wishlists of looks and common interests and other desirables in relationships, I will go out on a limb and suggest that what Frenchy is looking for is an INTELLECTUAL match. Verbal intercourse as well as physical. By that I mean a nice jigsaw-saw type match that encompasses friendship, shared discussions about whatever, you get my drift.

If I'm off base with that sorry Frenchy, maybe I'm reading you wrong. Most women crave the mental as well as physical stimulation.

Men can be the most wonderful friends and companions a woman can have, but a lot of the time all the bravado BS, and gender drama tends to get in the way of that, which is a damn shame.

Men aren't perfect - neither are women - but the match of head-space as well as bed-space is the ultimate. It is achievable, it is out there, but it is RARE - otherwise everyone would have it, whatever race or gender you are.
.
.

quote:

Originally posted by Frenchy:
I'm not supposed to care at all about how a man looks, how much money he has, whether he pampers me or shows his appreciation for me, etc? But let me come on this board or go to my family or my friends and announce that I have taken up with a very compassionate, understanding, loving homeless leper with no intention of ever moving out of his carboard box on Broadway and watch the world recoil in horror over how a woman can throw her life away like that. It's unreasonable, this message being put forth to Black women.

I truly appreciate your insight, by the way. However, I believe this kind of thinking is a consequence of how dramatically the roles between women and men have changed. Remember the days when men would be embarressed, and sometimes, enraged by the mere thought of their wife working to support them? Well, those days are long gone and some of the blame does fall upon women, particularly those women of the past who demanded that "Women's Liberation" include being treated like men, having the same occupation and salaries as men, and basically to ignore the traditional roles of women. All of this comes with special consequences, consequences that feminist groups did not seriously consider. Its a trade off. If you are going to work in the same capacity as men, earn impressive salaries, and be an "Independent Woman," then you cannot very well expect for men to treat you as if you are financially disadvantaged or to pamper you with priviledges and treatment that were offered to traditional, women of the past. Having said this, I think that in order to restore a manageable balance between women and men, in general, we need to take a very serious look at how far we have strayed away from the traditional roles of women and men and how this is ultimately impacting our families, our children, and our relationships between one another, especially since many African American males are not following the same professional paths as African American women. As difficult as it may be, this is a reality that we must accept and hopefully do something about.

I actually enjoyed this piece....Sandye thanks for sharing.

What i payed attention to in this piece, was the fact that men are human, and not perfect. This to me is 'realistic', and thats why i didnt have any issues with it.

But now, on the flip side of this situation .........i can understand the womens point of view. When you take this one step further, and think about it.......Yes there is a double standard.

Although im willing to accept 'some' of these facts concerning "A good black man"........i do get the feeling that these same men are not willing to 'deal' with "A good black woman", having these same faults, or imperfections. This is totally unrealistic.



Rowe mentioned this.......and i totally agree.

"Therefore, I think Frenchy as well as others have legitimate concerns and reasons for being "bitter." Presently, compared to Black women, Black men are more likely to find someone to meet (and exceed) all of their expections for a mate (e.g., educated, attractive, and prepared for life responsibilites) whereas Black women are forced to "accept flaws," "lower their standards," and "overlook problems," which can be really frustrating and heart-breaking".


What im confused about is, How do we turn this situation around.........or do men actually care?

I dont know....

quote:

Originally posted by art_gurl:
I will go out on a limb and suggest that what Frenchy is looking for is an INTELLECTUAL match. Verbal intercourse as well as physical. By that I mean a nice jigsaw-saw type...

Listen, lets not patronize the woman. Let us get a basic understanding of what ALL women need in general, rather than picking apart what each of us desires individually. This is a very serious discussion. I think Frenchy's concerns are relevant to what's happening today. I liken men in general (Black, White, Asian, etc.) to fine wines. They only get better with age. Generally speaking, young men have no clue as to how to interact with women, they are clumsy, unappreciative of intimate relationships, and lack a sophisticated sense of responsibility. Currently, I am dating an older man. And though there is a significant age difference between him and I, I have never gotten along with any man better. Our conversations are stimulating, he's already established, he knows more than I do, I never have to touch a car door, I never put my own coat on or off, and I never have to touch my wallet for anything. He won't let me. For the first time ever, I don't have to be anyone's momma, anyone's provider, slave, or caretaker, I CAN JUST BE A WOMAN. And it feels great. I have never been treated this way before, and its taken me no time at all to get used to. And if and when this relationship expires, I'm going to get another older man. Or, at least a young man, with an old soul. From now on sistas, I'm dating only mature men. I am done with the young bucks.

quote:

Originally posted by qty226:
What im confused about is, How do we turn this situation around.........or do men actually care? I dont know....

Our young brothers need as much exposure as possible to models of adult men who have a positive conception of manhood. They need intense instructional training in discipline, responsibility, character, and social interaction. Too many of our young brothers, in educational settings, for example, are not getting the benefit of having meaningful relationships with quality men. There is too much interaction women and girls. All day long, they see models of women in positions of authority, everyone from the principal on down to the teacher's aide. Never any men. That is not good. Then they have to go home and be bossed around by their mother (another women in authority) and no father. And consequently, these boys are left to find out for themselves what constitutes manhood by studying the models of manhood seen in rap videos, television, and movies. By the time they reach the age of the man that I am currently dating, that is, if they make it to his age, they are lucky if they still have positve attitudes about life, themselves, and women. Some Black men have developed hostile attitudes towards Black women because all their lives they have been bossed around by them. That is why women representing other races seem more attractive and inviting. Ultimately, the solutions are the very same discussed in this year's Millions More Movement, more interaction with positive, aspring brothers, and more people contributing to their personal development(e.g., Black male teachers, mentors, and fathers).

quote:

men are more likely to find someone to meet (and exceed) all of their expections for a mate (e.g., educated, attractive, and prepared for life responsibilites)

What good does it do to find these qualities only to find she is caring A LOT OF BAGGAGE and have to "pay the price" for all her past hurts? Who wants all of this but have it come along with a lot of bitterness?

I think men care...just not enough.

quote:

Generally speaking, young men have no clue as to how to interact with women, they are clumsy, unappreciative of intimate relationships, and lack a sophisticated sense of responsibility

Actually, this can apply to young women as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

quote:

Originally posted by art_gurl:
I will go out on a limb and suggest that what Frenchy is looking for is an INTELLECTUAL match. Verbal intercourse as well as physical. By that I mean a nice jigsaw-saw type...

Listen, lets not patronize the woman.

HUH???? by saying Frenchy - OR ANY OTHER WOMAN - wants an intellectual match is being patronizing?

I didn't say she wan't a dumb, subservient guy! I said an INTELLECTUAL MATCH.

And that is NOT asking too much, OR too little.
.
.

quote:

some of the blame does fall upon women, particularly those women of the past who demanded that "Women's Liberation" include being treated like men

you must have missed the whole thang... women's liberation WAS FROM being a dependant, household doormat, without the chance to have the skills or opportunity to engage in the rest of life!!! Having a career, a political discussion or having recognized skills was the domain of the man not the women.

Are you blaming women for trying to have equal as well as universal rights??????? There are female-specific rights that didn't happen through the 1800s those gender rights are still being fought for.
.
.

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

quote:

Originally posted by Frenchy:
I'm not supposed to care at all about how a man looks, how much money he has, whether he pampers me or shows his appreciation for me, etc? But let me come on this board or go to my family or my friends and announce that I have taken up with a very compassionate, understanding, loving homeless leper with no intention of ever moving out of his carboard box on Broadway and watch the world recoil in horror over how a woman can throw her life away like that. It's unreasonable, this message being put forth to Black women.

I truly appreciate your insight, by the way. However, I believe this kind of thinking is a consequence of how dramatically the roles between women and men have changed. Remember the days when men would be embarressed, and sometimes, enraged by the mere thought of their wife working to support them? Well, those days are long gone and some of the blame does fall upon women, particularly those women of the past who demanded that "Women's Liberation" include being treated like men, having the same occupation and salaries as men, and basically to ignore the traditional roles of women. All of this comes with special consequences, consequences that feminist groups did not seriously consider. Its a trade off. If you are going to work in the same capacity as men, earn impressive salaries, and be an "Independent Woman," then you cannot very well expect for men to treat you as if you are financially disadvantaged or to pamper you with priviledges and treatment that were offered to traditional, women of the past. Having said this, I think that in order to restore a manageable balance between women and men, in general, we need to take a very serious look at how far we have strayed away from the traditional roles of women and men and how this is ultimately impacting our families, our children, and our relationships between one another, especially since many African American males are not following the same professional paths as African American women. As difficult as it may be, this is a reality that we must accept and hopefully do something about.

Well said! This is the "other" side of the double standard that is not mentioned very often.


_______
EDIT (cross-thread talk that is related): Is an engagement ring sexist Frenchy? Couldn't you buy your own? Couldn't you buy his ring too & propose to him while you're at it? Just wondering...

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

quote:

Originally posted by art_gurl:
I will go out on a limb and suggest that what Frenchy is looking for is an INTELLECTUAL match. Verbal intercourse as well as physical. By that I mean a nice jigsaw-saw type...

Listen, lets not patronize the woman. Let us get a basic understanding of what ALL women need in general, rather than picking apart what each of us desires individually. This is a very serious discussion. I think Frenchy's concerns are relevant to what's happening today. See, I liken men in general (Black, White, Asian, etc.) to fine wines. They only get better with age. Generally speaking, young men have no clue as to how to interact with women, they are clumsy, unappreciative of intimate relationships, and lack a sophisticated sense of responsibility. Currently, I am seeing an older gentlemen. And though there is a significant age difference between him and I, I have never gotten along with any man better. Our conversations are stimulating, he's already established, he knows more than I do, I never have to touch a car door, I never put my own coat on or off, and I never have to touch my wallet for anything. He won't let me. For the first time ever, I don't have to be anyone's momma, anyone's provider, slave, or caretaker, I CAN JUST BE A WOMAN. And it feels great. I have never been treated this way before, and its taken me no time at all to get used to. And if and when this relationship expires, I'm going to get another older man. Or, at least a young man, with an old soul. From now on sistas, I'm dating only mature men. I am done with the young bucks.

You're 2 for 2 ! I feel the same way about women - they get better as they get older. My best relationships have been with older women.

quote:

Originally posted by art_gurl:

quote:

some of the blame does fall upon women, particularly those women of the past who demanded that "Women's Liberation" include being treated like men

you must have missed the whole thang... women's liberation WAS FROM being a dependant, household doormat, without the chance to have the skills or opportunity to engage in the rest of life!!! Having a career, a political discussion or having recognized skills was the domain of the man not the women.

Are you blaming women for trying to have equal as well as universal rights??????? There are female-specific rights that didn't happen through the 1800s those gender rights are still being fought for.
.
.

I think Rowe explained it perfectly (read it again!) - the gender roles (whether you agreed with them or not) also came with clear and different obligations for men & women. As women's gender roles became more like men's (resulting from becoming legally equal), women's obligations were no longer different (or subservient). If men & women are equal, why should men:

1) Be expected to pay for all (or most) dates?
2) Be expected to open doors & do other "gentlemenly" things?
3) Be expected to pamper & be gentle with women?
etc, etc...

These were things born of sexism, in deference to the "weaker" sex. So it sounds like you want the "nice" aspects of sexism with the discrimination... I suspect these "perks" (now consider to be standard "gentlemanly" behavior)would not exist if not for sexism.

quote:

These were things born of sexism, in deference to the "weaker" sex. So it sounds like you want the "nice" aspects of sexism with the discrimination... I suspect these "perks" (now consider to be standard "gentlemanly" behavior)would not exist if not for sexism.



Posts: 229 | Location: ATL | Registered: July 28, 2005

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quote:

Originally posted by MidLifeMan:

quote:

men are more likely to find someone to meet (and exceed) all of their expections for a mate (e.g., educated, attractive, and prepared for life responsibilites)

What good does it do to find these qualities only to find she is caring A LOT OF BAGGAGE and have to "pay the price" for all her past hurts? Who wants all of this but have it come along with a lot of bitterness?

Because of widespread negative perceptions that many black women adapt, black men desiring to marry a black woman with a healthy attitude don't have many women to choose from. They are few and far between, one in a million and diamonds in the rough.
Why do some women focus on and prepare themselves for the worst possible men but refuse to consider the possibility of being in a relationship with a desired and positive mate? Why do some black women choose to condemn themselves to marrying a bum or not marrying at all?
The phrase "All the good ones are already taken" is a fallacy in and of itself. All married people were single and available at some point. How is it that Jet magazine is able to find quality black newlyweds every week of every year? Personally, I can't remember a spring where I didn't hear of or was invited to a black couples wedding. Quality black men and women will continue to meet and marry. What is it that separates the black women that do marry and the ones that don't? Luck? I don't think so.
The real enemy is fear and hopelessness. I am not a woman so I can't relate, I can only imagine how easy it is for despair to set in considering the current social climate of black relationships.
My theory: Only the strong survives. Meaning strong willed in the mind and in the soul with a healthy, positive attitude to match. This kind of women stands out in a crowd to the man that knows the worth of a quality woman and can recognize it in her.

Rowe, ddouble, MidLifeMan, etc, Women's Liberation/Feminism is NOT about trying to become men! It is about having options and rights and respect. It is having the opportunity to work outside the home and receive an equal pay (not a fraction of what any man would make) if that is what I chose to do. It is about being recognized as a human being with my own mind and VALID opinions that have every right to be recognized and applauded as any man's. It is about not being the PROPERTY of neither my father nor my husband. It is about not being ostracized because I don't want kids or want to get married or because I 'm pregnant out of wedlock. It is about not having to speak in hushed tones avoiding any sort of declarative sentence like some kind of simple-minded feeb. It is about It is about not being second-guessed or held back because I have a period once a month.

Women are different. *NOT LESS THAN*, but different. We are also not yet equal! I STILL don't make as much a man. I'm STILL not placed in positions of power as equally as men because "what happens when she gets PMS, she might get emotional and screw things up!" Etc. So it is total bullshit to trot out this "You wanted to work, so now BE MEN." That's completely ignorant of reality (and once again removes men from taking any sort of responsibility for their behavior/mindset). Sounds like white people who say "You wanted Civil Rights, you got them, so now we are off the hook from any personal responsibility. Our accountability is over. Go forth and BE WHITE." The opportunity to do something does not mean that is everyone's path. Just because people supported or fought for the option to attend college does not mean that everyone must by default be college-bound. Just because I want the option to enter the work force does not mean that I should now be pigeon-holed into working as my only option. That is some really immature "No, you wanted the spaghetti for dinner, you got it and now you are going to have spaghetti for the rest of your life!" bullshit.

No matter what I do or what I am given, I will not be a man. I will not on average be able to lift as much in a weightlifting competition, or piss while standing, or any other number of things. And that's fine. I accept that and I love all of the things that make me a woman and I'm intelligent enough to recognize that those things do not make me an inferior human being who must be reduced back down to a piece of property in order to find a man who is respectful and responsible.

As far as any double-standard, that is really a bunch of bullshit. Let's look at the roles as they were and as they are now:

Before: men work and woman care for the home
Now: men work, women work AND women take care of the home

Women like a man who is considerate, who is a gentleman. Men like a woman THAT CAN WORK AND WILL WORK. There has been no return to tradition for men. Just the other day we had a thread about whether you would marry a woman who doesn't work and there was a resounding HELL NO. So women should go back in time and reverse all of our rights and opportunities for what? A group of men who are looking for a financial partner in life??

I didn't find art_gurl's response patronizing. I would love an intellectual match. I'd love for all of my sisters to find their intellectual equal. But more than that, we deserve an enlightened man who recognizes and supports what it is to be a woman in this world.

MidLifeMan, I'm not opposed in theory to proposing to a man. And I think it's completely nonsensical to buy your own engagement ring because you aren't proposing to your own self.

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/169708...871072621#2871072621


.......the single Black woman with an obstinate attitude who appears angry at everything in general, but at the Black man in particular: The Angry Black Woman. The Angry Black Woman can be identified by her attitude, her conversation and sometimes, even her body language. Sometimes it's in the twist of the neck, or a dismissive roll of the eyes during normal conversation. Sometimes it's in the sharp tongue that lashes out with shrill, unsolicited criticism or advice, which is typically baseless and negative. The Angry Black Woman may refer to herself as a strong Black woman, or an independent woman, but may be called a bitch by men and women. This woman will refer to ALL Black men as weak, lazy and beneath her, while identifying them as the sole source of all of her woes, particularly her inability to find her desired mate. Her conversation with other women is rife with hopelessness and negativity. The Angry Black Woman may be otherwise desirable, but is unable to move beyond past pain and fear, which sits on her shoulders as bitterness and anger, driving most good things out of her life. Holding on to that bitterness can bring dire consequences.......the National Council of Negro Women cautioned women against bitterness."Unless a woman learns not to be bitter about defeats and not to be arrogant about successes, each of them, both your success and your defeat can limit you," Kemp warned. Bitterness has shown up in dating more than any other arena. Each of us who dates has had bad experiences, no matter how lengthy or brief. If we take those experiences personally, then they become a part of who we are and we use them to judge all others. Thus, "all men" (or from a burned out man's perspective, "all women") are screwed up. Anger is also infectious. When someone comes at us with anger, it is easy to absorb it and become changed. I've been temporarily infected by the attacks of angry, negative people with nothing productive or positive to bring, who expect me to dialogue in a civil manner. I rebuke them and avoid further contact, leaving the bitterness in quarantine........In many cases, anger is simply a reaction to fear, but it can be used productively, as advised by noted author Zora Neale Hurston: "The thing to do is to grab the broom of anger and drive off the beast of fear." The voices of those who embrace anger and negativity are loud and overabundant, raging in malignant magazine articles, on low brow television shows and in circles of negative friends. Those voices spread the propaganda that all Black men are out to hurt Black women, are beneath them and/or have no desire to marry ....... Negativity, like the dark side of the force, is seductive and is a breeding ground for anger. When we hear negative things and we are already in pain, our hearts are prepped for anything that will mask the pain. Nothing masks pain the way anger does. In fact, anger feeds off of the pain and makes the host believe that there is actually no pain at all. The result of submission to negativity is a life filled with hopelessness and fear, which often shows up as anger. There is a deep-seated pathology involved when humans begin to embrace hopelessness. That pathology has manifest itself in a masked depression showing up in a great number of unmarried, thirty-something and forty-something Black women. According to LaVerne Porter Wheatley Perry, a clinical psychologist, "hopelessness is a Black female learned attitude...... But the Angry Black Woman must understand that there is no good result from anger.........

It's a black man out there right now getting his ear nagged and gnawed off by his woman. Yet he is patient, loving, and understanding. Talk about a double-standard. Why are women innocent until proven guilty, but men are dogs until they prove otherwise? Give me a breakk! If anybody's getting an unfair deal, it's men. Black men. We're disloyal, lazy, unintelligent, overwhelmingly angry, liars, gay, and abusive. And that's just at first glance! On the other had women are viewed as loyal, hardworking, intelligent, peaceful, truthful, straight, and nonviolent. Where's Nathan Mchall when you need him...

Sad part is, intelligent beings are walking around believing that these generalizations are valid... and that's cool. What irks my nerves is the fact that these same people are quick to invalidate the Black man's disposition. I don't know what's worse, being an INVISIBLE MAN or being all those other things that I mentioned.

Honestly, I'd rather go back to being INVISIBLE.

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Originally posted by Rowe:

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Originally posted by qty226:
What im confused about is, How do we turn this situation around.........or do men actually care? I dont know....

Our young brothers need as much exposure as possible to models of adult men who have a positive conception of manhood. They need intense instructional training in discipline, responsibility, character, and social interaction. Too many of our young brothers, in educational settings, for example, are not getting the benefit of having meaningful relationships with quality men. There is too much interaction women and girls. All day long, they see models of women in positions of authority, everyone from the principal on down to the teacher's aide. Never any men. That is not good. Then they have to go home and be bossed around by their mother (another women in authority) and no father. And consequently, these boys are left to find out for themselves what constitutes manhood by studying the models of manhood seen in rap videos, television, and movies. By the time they reach the age of the man that I am currently dating, that is, if they make it to his age, they are lucky if they still have positve attitudes about life, themselves, and women. Some Black men have developed hostile attitudes towards Black women because all their lives they have been bossed around by them. That is why women representing other races seem more attractive and inviting. Ultimately, the solutions are the very same discussed in this year's Millions More Movement, more interaction with positive, aspring brothers, and more people contributing to their personal development(e.g., Black male teachers, mentors, and fathers).

I agree with this statement.........but i often wonder why, black men in this situation are angry with their mothers and black women.........and not their 'fathers'and black men!!!

Amazing........

Im a young single black woman, and these types of men i will have to avoid.......because if i dont, i will become a 'bitter' woman. (and that 'aint happening)

Frenchy Rowe: and all others who responded. I appreciate your thoughtful input (and I don't feel as though the messenger has been shot ). I shared the piece as I think it has a lot of truth in it. I didn't think of it as "Black men are wonderful and women are to be blamed", I thought of it as a supportive piece on Black men in general. I have grown weary of the "Brothers don't want sisters", "Brothers are gay", yada yada yada that has dominated the board of late.

I think it is beyond time that we attempt to bridge the gap that lies between us as there are many Sisters who will remain loyal to Brothers regardless of the pain, disloyalty, disappointment, and heartache. I would love to see a supportive piece on the virtues of Sisters written by a Brother. It would be a step in the right direction.

What I got out of the writing was that whether a man is a CEO or a street sweeper, if he is true to himself and his partner, he is a keeper. I am painfully aware that love don't love nobody and can't pay the bills. (A blade of grass for your birthday cracked me up! I ain't sayin' I'm a golddigger ... )

We have a long way to go and I make no excuses for the shortcomings, failures, and weaknesses of human beings, but I have found that a little support and appreciation is good for both Brothers and Sisters. We have enough external forces kicking our collective asses out there - although I do personally believe that Brothers have FAR more options than Sisters when it comes to relationships.

The person who sent me this email is one of the people who is on a mission to "heal my heart" and make me see the good that I may be missing. The sentiment was sweet, but I will never - EVER - let anyone close enough to hurt me again. Those days are long gone. Even so, I will love Brothers until the day I day even though I don't understand why love was/is never reciprocated.

I get a chill down my spine when I see a couple of color obviously in love and happy. It also makes me cry myself to sleep every once in a while. If we can not unite as friends, lovers, couples, and families, it is impossible to unite as a people. I hope that I live to see the day that we love and respect one another and stop playing the adversarial tit for tat role. I also hope that Brothers who have "issues" with Sisters will see the light and see that we have been their biggest supporters all of their lives. Perhaps one day Brothers and Sisters can meet somewhere in the middle, black boot stomp the stereotypes and anger down, and learn to love one another again. One can only hope ...

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Women's Liberation/Feminism is NOT about trying to become men! It is about having options and rights and respect. It is having the opportunity to work outside the home.

Frenchy, I never said Women's Lib was about women becoming men. I said (paraphrasing) Women's Lib involved, to some degree, women demanding the right to take on the roles of men, not considering how doing so may negatively impact the relationships between women and men OR their relationships with their children. I am dead set against women working outside the home. If the father is working outside the home and the mother decides to follow his footsteps, then who will raise the children? Children already spend more than half of their lives in schools with the teacher! Therefore, women need to seriously think about what's more important: Your desire to prove that you can do any and everything that a man can do, or the personal development of the child. This is precisely why the balance between women and men needs to be restored. It is also the reason why both men, and women, should strongly support traditional conceptions of manhood and traditional gender roles. If this opposite, but complementary balance is restored, then you would not have to work AND take care of the home! You can invest your time and energy into those activities that are more important, such as being a Wife to your husband and a Queen Mother to your children.

Finally, I want to make something clear. I am strongly against men mistreating women, and I am eternally grateful for those who have made it a lot easier for women to exist in this society. However, to associate women performing traditional roles in the home with being "mistreated" or "disrespected" is an egregious error. To be certain, there is no occupation in existence that is more important than being a Mother, a child's first teacher. Being a Mother is a honor, it is a priviledge. See, this negative, shameful attitude about being a Mother is what is chiefly responsible for why more and more women feel that being a Mother is not "good enough" for them, that they just have to do more and be more. Well, who are you trying to be? More importantly, can women assume that just because they work alongside men in corporations that men will look at us in the same way they look at men? Men won't, and men never will look at us in this way. And women should be grateful, because if a significant number of men ever did look at women in this way, then humanity would cease to exist. No matter what suit you put on, or what position you take, nothing is going to diguise your femininity, so be proud of it. YES! We should definitely keep our men in check by reminding them every now and again about the value of women, but don't lose yourself and lose sight of what is important in the process.

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Originally posted by Sandye:
I do personally believe that Brothers have FAR more options than Sisters when it comes to relationships.

Most of us agree this much is true. The difficulty is producing practical solutions that will restore (and maintain) balance between African American women and men. Too many of our Brothers are unemployed and/or underemployed, and you cannot financially support a family on such scanty wages. We need to get our Brothers literate, educated, prepared with job skills, and ultimately employed.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Sandye:
I do personally believe that Brothers have FAR more options than Sisters when it comes to relationships.



Most of us agree this much is true. The difficulty is producing practical solutions that will restore (and maintain) balance between African American women and men. Too many of our Brothers are unemployed and/or underemployed, and you cannot financially support a family on such scanty wages. We need to get our Brothers literate, educated, prepared with job skills, and ultimately employed.

Considering both sentiments, aren't you proving that Sistas indeed have MORE options?

Has anybody read my post in the sistas' spot(Black Women: I know what many of you don't want, now tell me what you DO want)? I dunno...it's seems to tie into this topic. Check it out.

Rowe, your characterize feminist ideals as somehow making women less of a woman and more like a man. That is incorrect. Feminism is about options. It's perfectly fine to stay at home and raise children if that is what you choose, but if you choose otherwise or if you don't have or want a husband and family to take care of, you should have the opportunity to pursue anything you desire and for an equal pay.

I don't equate traditional roles with being mistreated. I equate being forced into a particular role as mistreatment.

Furthermore, as I previously mentioned, I think it's somewhat counter-productive for women to push an agenda whereby men return to being the sole breadwinners in the family when men (in general) have made it quite clear that they do not want that position. They want a financial partner (among other things). Women would be left even more worse off than now.

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No matter what suit you put on, or what position you take, nothing is going to diguise your femininity, so be proud of it.

I agree. As I posted before:
"No matter what I do or what I am given, I will not be a man. I will not on average be able to lift as much in a weightlifting competition, or piss while standing, or any other number of things. And that's fine. I accept that and I love all of the things that make me a woman and I'm intelligent enough to recognize that those things do not make me an inferior human being who must be reduced back down to a piece of property in order to find a man who is respectful and responsible."

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I would love to see a supportive piece on the virtues of Sisters written by a Brother.

I would love to see that as well, Sandye. I'd adore it!

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Considering both sentiments, aren't you proving that Sistas indeed have MORE options?

Men have more options as far as relationships are concerned (Sandye). Women have more options educationally and financially (Rowe). The second statement doesn't contradict the first.

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Originally posted by Sandye:
Got this from a good friend, thought I would pass it along.

"A Good Black Man"

Good Black Men are indeed all around us. We pass them on the streets, in the malls and the halls at work. Most we can't see because we don't know what a good Black man really looks like. He usually isn't flashy enough or rich enough to turn our heads. He might not wear a suit or drive a Lexus. He might not have a "body like Tyson with a Denzel face." But, as you mature, you realize it's better to find someone who has your back than someone who turns your head.

A good Black Man doesn't agree wholeheartedly with everything you say. He doesn't just tell you what you want to hear and do the opposite. He doesn't declare how sensitive, sweet, caring, sincere, yada yada he is (he won't have to because it shows). He has his own opinions and you may clash, but he doesn't have to degrade you to prove he's right. He even admits at times to being wrong, especially if you are willing to do the same!

A good Black Man is not going to meet every item on your checklist. He is human with frailties and faults mixed in with all of his wonderful, strong attributes.

He needs your love and respect. He needs to feel that you don't live to "catch" him doing something wrong so you can declare, "Aha! I knew you were a dog!!"

A good Black Man doesn't necessarily give you a huge birthday or Valentine's gift. He shows his love in the ways that are comfortable to him. Don't judge him by TV standards. No one is really living a fairy tale.

You'll miss out on your destiny by buying into the myth that our men are no good. It's just not true. Black Men, we salute you, and thank you for who you are and all you've done.

Sandye!

Alot of women do need encouragement like this. I'm not talking about the man haters I'm talking about women who really do want to love and trust a Black man, but have been hurt in the past and are in the process of losing hope.

quote:

Originally posted by Sandye:
The person who sent me this email is one of the people who is on a mission to "heal my heart" and make me see the good that I may be missing. The sentiment was sweet, but I will never - EVER - let anyone close enough to hurt me again. Those days are long gone. Even so, I will love Brothers until the day I day even though I don't understand why love was/is never reciprocated.

Sandye ...

This is precisely why, before it's over, you are going to find the perfect man to live and grow old with! I can just feel it.

The man you will have will indeed be able to get close to you, simply because the way in which he loves you will not allow him to hurt you. And once you recognize that ... and that in him ... it will be all systems go!

It's not that you will be keeping him at arm's distance, it's that he will be at arm's distance because that's as close as he can get to you. And that will be close enough for him.

Until one day, those arms will just slide around his neck instead.

EbonyRose... re the above.... I just wanted to say how astute, and how beautifully said.

Sandye, take heart and take heed.
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