A man from Cameroon lives in the apartment next to me - he has three wives and three children. He works in Macy's. Two of the three wives braid hair on 125th Street. They also have a Mexican nanny. Seems to me, the unmarried status of Black women is only an issue in amerikkka.
Of course theoretically, if all women restricted sex to marriage...damn if that isn't the ultimate incentive for getting married for a man. Promiscuity or rampant fornication by women takes away the leverage for marriage in many men. Men are primarily driven by their sex drive. They are more visual and studies have concluded that men think about sex much more often than do women. So if you want to socially reengineer male behavior in a free society, you can do so by rewarding certain behaviors with sex.

I have no doubt in my mind that if young girls all of a sudden became hyper attracted to intelligence and educational performance, young brother would be hitting the books like a mutha. Man.... it that was the case growing up I would have solved the mysteries of "string theory" and quantum mechanics if it led to some tig ole bitties and badunka dunk. However, the drug dealers, players and athletes were getting all of them.

I am not suggesting that it is the responsibility of women to change in order to make things better. What I am saying is that it is the change in the women that has negatively impacted relationships. That said, maybe this is a case where sometimes you have to take two steps back in order to take a leap forward.

I think one of the problems is that there is a fierce competition between women, for black men, that leads to a race to the bottom. In order to try and get, keep and satisfy a man a women may feel she have to push the sexual envelope or the next women will. Women are sleeping with their girl friends man and some biological sisters are sleeping with their sibling's man. As soon as the word gets around that you got skills, some of your girl's friends are throwing hints at you. Its every woman for herself and a lot of women find some sort of strange pleasure in having someone else's man.

I think the institution of family as a whole is deteriorating in Western society. Nearly every capitalist Western nation has experienced declining birth rates over the last 25 years. Over half of those nations will soon fall below the replacement threshold of 2.1 children per women.... or already have. The primary purpose of life is reproduction and propagating the species. When the species starts to fail to replace their dead with new births.... they are moving toward extinction. In other words, something is radically wrong.

In societies like ours, children are devalued as a consequence of the devaluing of relationships and family due to capitalism. Children, traditionally, were a source of income and social security through most of human evolution during the agrarian era. In capitalistic society, people have social security systems and kids are a large financial cost. Given that women are competing more for careers and climbing the corporate ladder, they delay childbirth because giving birth and having to spend time nurturing newborn's is a competitive disadvantage to their male counterparts competing for the same limited spots. Some women wait until its too late and then can't have children.

My point is that the general social construct in the West is in decay and the relationship between men and women is part and parcel to that decay.
quote:
Originally posted by ma'am:


Men feel a loss of status and emasculated by racism outside the home, so they want to feel as if they grew balls by having unquestioned power within the home. They need to feel like men, but instead of going to their bosses, coworkers, or neighbors and getting that feeling by demanding to be treated as an equal, they go to their sisters and sistas and demand to be treated as a superior. And that's why they want women to stay at home and obey their authority.

So they idealize the past. It's often not even their past (unless they've been descending from bourgeois during and since slavery)"”Most often that of those who have subjected them and Mrs. Cleaver. Some disguise their Eurocentric wet dreams by speaking about "traditional Africa." But, Africa is the most diverse of continents. There are tribes where women are the submissives, tribes where genders are more peers, and even tribes where men are the submissives. Why do they choose to be a cafeteria-African and chose some of the social structure only of the first? Is it really because they think this is best for both genders, or is it because it is so close to the old ideals of Uncle Sam?


That needs to be repeated... often!
quote:
Of course theoretically, if all women restricted sex to marriage...damn if that isn't the ultimate incentive for getting married for a man. Promiscuity or rampant fornication by women takes away the leverage for marriage in many men. Men are primarily driven by their sex drive. They are more visual and studies have concluded that men think about sex much more often than do women. So if you want to socially reengineer male behavior in a free society, you can do so by rewarding certain behaviors with sex.



Women are driven by their sex drives too, just to a LESSER extent. Only SOME Women can abstain from sex until marriage, not women as a whole or majority.
I think part of the reason why so many black women and women in general are not married is because some women have a 5 page list of their perfect and ideal man.

Aside from the givens that all women should want from a man that should remain on their list, women need to understand that there are no perfect guys.
THE FEMINIST WOMENS LIB MOVEMENT WAS COMPLETELY FINANCED BY THE ROCKEFELLERS!! THEYRE WHOLE PLAN INCLUDED WOMENS LIB BECAUSE THEY NEEDED TO SEPERATE THE FAMILY IN ORDER TO COMPLETELY CONTROL THIS AMERICAN SOCIETY!!!
i have posted this video and will find a better one on this subject...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYJaYmidZjI

womens lib has contributed to so many ills in this society, Black, White, whatever...
anyway...this video speaks on this subject and others that have links to it...

Blacks have fallen harder than all others in this country in large part because of The Womens Lib Feminist Movement.
Before W.L., we were having more children, family values were higher, more fathers were in the home!
Men have fallen for it just as much as Women...

peace and wisdom
Damn Mariah Stewart, Sojourner Truth, Anna Julia Cooper, and Ida B. Wells for following THE ROCKEFELLERS!!! ROFL

When I said that most Black Americans haven't a clue about Blacks and feminism--regardless of how often it is the subject of conversation and condemnation.
quote:
Originally posted by ma'am:
When I said that most Black Americans haven't a clue about Blacks and feminism--regardless of how often it is the subject of conversation and condemnation.


There are some fundamental issues feminism succeeded in rectifying that most women take for granted -- like in the workplace, there is supposed to be equal pay for equal work, and those in charge work very hard to keep any disparities hidden because it is antithetical to what we now believe is right. Or within banking institutions women now have sole access to their own bank accounts in spite of marital status.

There are very basic issues that few/not enough women younger than 35 properly attribute to the feminist struggle, although they certainly do benefit. It is unfortunate, really.

As bell hooks said, "Their misunderstanding of feminist politics reflects the reality that most folks learn about feminism from patriarchal mass media."
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
Of course theoretically, if all women restricted sex to marriage...damn if that isn't the ultimate incentive for getting married for a man. Promiscuity or rampant fornication by women takes away the leverage for marriage in many men.


Fornication by women? Brother, it takes TWO consenting adults to make the decision to have sex. Unless you want us to believe that men have absolutely no power over their bodies and the decisions they make, they too should be held accountable for "fornicating." I have no idea why you chose to exclusively associate this word with the female gender.

quote:
Men are primarily driven by their sex drive. They are more visual and studies have concluded that men think about sex much more often than do women


So? That doesn't mean that you need to act on your instincts, if we were to buy into this research, which was most likely conducted by men (it always is). You're not an animal. You have a brain and you can make intelligent and conscious decisions, just like women. Men are also capable of exercising self-discipline and self-control. So we're not going to allow you to make excuses for your gender. And if a man's only reason for pursuing a woman is to have sex, rather than building and bonding, then that man is not ready to marry, because he is still functioning on the lowest conscious level.

quote:
So if you want to socially reengineer male behavior in a free society, you can do so by rewarding certain behaviors with sex.


Oh my God. First, it's not our responsibility as women to "reegnieer men." That's your responsibility. A man is responsible for making his own decisions, fulfilling his own purpose and destiny, and optimizing his own life. Ultimately, you are responsible for how your life turns out. Don't expect someone else to be responsible for it and don't blame others when you make poor decisions. This whole "these fornicating women out here and their bad poo-poos made us this way" is just a load of crap. You know, I'm beginning to see why we're in so much trouble. Men today have no idea what is means to TCB (Take Care of Business). Apparently, you're waiting on women to do it for you. There is entirely too butt-wiping and coddling going in the lives of young men today. Sex may motivate a BOY to marry. But establishing and securing The Black Family is what motivates a MAN to marry. If your only motive for marrying a woman is to have sex, then you're not ready to get married to anyone. You need additional time to grow up in your manhood.

quote:
it that was the case growing up I would have solved the mysteries of "string theory" and quantum mechanics if it led to some tig ole bitties and badunka dunk. However, the drug dealers, players and athletes were getting all of them.


Again, you're reducing a mammoth problem (Black Male extinction) to women lusting after "bad guys," which is not a problem that is limited to the Black race. Again, you're avoiding the larger issues.

quote:
Given that women are competing more for careers and climbing the corporate ladder, they delay childbirth because giving birth and having to spend time nurturing newborn's is a competitive disadvantage to their male counterparts competing for the same limited spots. Some women wait until its too late and then can't have children.


Men have no idea what it's like to be in a woman in this day and time. That is why I am baffled by the assuredness of some of you all's advice. You speak as if you have been women before, and you have not. Allow me to give you a glimpse into what it is like to be a Black woman. Many of our "choices" to pursue education and careers are not "choices" at all. The society and the suffering in our community makes pursuing an education and career absolutely necessary. After we graduate from high school, we don't get introduced to high society. We don't attend socialite functions organized to match us with eligible men in our elite social class. WE GO TO WORK and WE GO TO SCHOOL so that we can survive. Black women in particular, cannot afford to wait on Prince Charming to come and sweep us off feet and provide us with a life. A Black woman has to provide for herself. So you cannot blame Black women for doing what has to be done so that they will not be homeless, illiterate, or hungry.
quote:
Blacks have fallen harder than all others in this country in large part because of The Womens Lib Feminist Movement. Before W.L., we were having more children, family values were higher, more fathers were in the home!


Blaming Black men's "shortcomings" (I hate to use that word) on Women's liberation is like blaming a child for wanting to learn how to read and write and to succeed. Therefore, I refuse to let womens' desires to have access to human rights to be used as a scapegoat in this discussion. Long before today, both women and men had sex outside of marriage, they lived together, etc. yet and still our parents took care of business. They didn't make the excuses that I see a lot of young people making today. More importantly, they had a sense of purpose in their life. Life wasn't just about "getting laid" and "getting the bling and the dough." Today, young people have some truly underdeveloped and limited perceptions about what it means to be in a relationship, what it means to really relate to another human being, and aspire to greatness.

When I hear young brothers today describing themselves as if they were savage animals, it reveals a lot about what they think of themselves as men. Some of them have dispeccably low perceptions of themselves and are completely unaware of what they are truly capable of as keepers and Gods of this universe. It's terribly sad and my heart is weeping for their spiritual identities.

A man is MORE than his sex drive and how he performs with his penis. A man is MORE than his physical strength. A man is even MORE than his earning potential, if only MORE men realized this, then our community could survive.
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
This is the title of MBM's new "Portal" video...

Is this a true stat?

If so, what do you believe has happened? Is this just in certain classes?

I suppose a more relevant question, if you believe this is true, is where the heck are all the Black men?


MBM is this leading up to an all sister show or something?

thoughts?

Problematic...

The GLARING assumption above (where the heck are all the Black men) rest in the belief that Black men are not available for marriage.

The stated statistic could be related to the unwillingness of Black women to embrace the institution of marriage. In fact, there may be a number of reasons as to why 70 percent of Black women are single unrelated to Black male behavior.
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
Of course theoretically, if all women restricted sex to marriage...damn if that isn't the ultimate incentive for getting married for a man. Promiscuity or rampant fornication by women takes away the leverage for marriage in many men. Men are primarily driven by their sex drive. They are more visual and studies have concluded that men think about sex much more often than do women. So if you want to socially reengineer male behavior in a free society, you can do so by rewarding certain behaviors with sex.

I have no doubt in my mind that if young girls all of a sudden became hyper attracted to intelligence and educational performance, young brother would be hitting the books like a mutha. Man.... it that was the case growing up I would have solved the mysteries of "string theory" and quantum mechanics if it led to some tig ole bitties and badunka dunk. However, the drug dealers, players and athletes were getting all of them.

I am not suggesting that it is the responsibility of women to change in order to make things better. What I am saying is that it is the change in the women that has negatively impacted relationships. That said, maybe this is a case where sometimes you have to take two steps back in order to take a leap forward.

I think one of the problems is that there is a fierce competition between women, for black men, that leads to a race to the bottom. In order to try and get, keep and satisfy a man a women may feel she have to push the sexual envelope or the next women will. Women are sleeping with their girl friends man and some biological sisters are sleeping with their sibling's man. As soon as the word gets around that you got skills, some of your girl's friends are throwing hints at you. Its every woman for herself and a lot of women find some sort of strange pleasure in having someone else's man.

I think the institution of family as a whole is deteriorating in Western society. Nearly every capitalist Western nation has experienced declining birth rates over the last 25 years. Over half of those nations will soon fall below the replacement threshold of 2.1 children per women.... or already have. The primary purpose of life is reproduction and propagating the species. When the species starts to fail to replace their dead with new births.... they are moving toward extinction. In other words, something is radically wrong.

In societies like ours, children are devalued as a consequence of the devaluing of relationships and family due to capitalism. Children, traditionally, were a source of income and social security through most of human evolution during the agrarian era. In capitalistic society, people have social security systems and kids are a large financial cost. Given that women are competing more for careers and climbing the corporate ladder, they delay childbirth because giving birth and having to spend time nurturing newborn's is a competitive disadvantage to their male counterparts competing for the same limited spots. Some women wait until its too late and then can't have children.

My point is that the general social construct in the West is in decay and the relationship between men and women is part and parcel to that decay.

There has never been a time in HISTORY where women or men withheld sex from each other for any reason... especially marriage. However, I do agree that Black women, if they so choose, can play a major role in modifying the behavior of Black men.

I think your point about "man sharing" is worth more discussion in the Black community. It is time to for Black amerikkka to formally accept what has been made taboo and practiced underground. And until the day when the numbers of Black men equal the numbers of Black women, at marriageable age, the informal practice of man sharing will continue to produce numbers that folks seem to consider a tragic consequence of Black womenhood in amerikkka.
I don't believe that it is the responsibility of black women to modiy the behavior of black men. Brotha's need to man up and stop making excuses for his failures and shortcomings.

We need to stop having children all over the city by mutliple women. We need to stop lying to these women about who we are. What we need to do is look our women in her eyes and tell her I got this.

It's long over do where black women in America can sit back and rely on the brotha's to work it out. We have spent too much time being bad boys acting as though that is the way a man is suppose to act. Sometimes we can be our own worst enemy.

We need to roll back the clock where the young man listened to what the old man has to say. That's what I did and it has served me well throughout the years. As a matter of fact, I still love talking to old black men. I learn more from them than any book could ever teach me.

I am not suggesting that the majority of brotha's are not taking care of business. I know that isn't the case. I am speaking specifically about the ones who are habitual screw ups.
excellent post Rowe, in particular:
quote:
Rowe: The point is, in the very near future, marriages and relationships will be less about getting your physical needs met and more about getting your emotional, spiritual, and intellectual needs met. The more educated a couple is, the more that is going to be required of you in these areas.

the future is now.
quote:
Originally posted by FireFly:
excellent post Rowe, in particular:
quote:
Rowe: The point is, in the very near future, marriages and relationships will be less about getting your physical needs met and more about getting your emotional, spiritual, and intellectual needs met. The more educated a couple is, the more that is going to be required of you in these areas.


the future is now.


Most definitely. tfro
quote:
It's funny how that mentality has become the boogieman in this community, though.


Are you speaking of the AA.org [male] community, the Black [male] community or the human [male] community.

I'm thinking that with a very few exceptions, the the AA.org male community is accepting of and supportive of this future.
quote:
Originally posted by ac9311:

We need to roll back the clock where the young man listened to what the old man has to say. That's what I did and it has served me well throughout the years. As a matter of fact, I still love talking to old black men. I learn more from them than any book could ever teach me.



How far are we talking about with regard to rolling back the clock? In doing so, we'd also have to take in to account the bitter that comes along with that sweet.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
Its a sad situation. Every other group of people has harmony between the man and female.Everyone elses woman plays on the team. They support their men.


Maybe I'm out of my league, but I wouldn't say that about the Asian-American situation right now. Asian-American women have the highest rate of dating White men out of any women of color in the US. There have been statistics that between 22 and 35% of second and third generation Asian-American women date and marry White men. Yet Asian-American men have a much lower rate of dating non-Asian women.

You can't say that about Black women.
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
egalitarianism

Political practice aimed at increasing equality; the philosophical explanation and defence of the value of equality. The goods, benefits, or burdens of which an equal distribution is thought valuable may be variously specified. Considerable debate has surrounded what is required on egalitarian principles sensitive to the arguments of modern liberalism. The focus is on the identification of inequalities which are arbitrary from a moral point of view"”perhaps those which result from natural talent but not those which result from differential effort, for example. In general, the equality in question is an equality of outcome. Equalities of income, wealth, utility, and life-chances have been canvassed, as well as equal consideration (see also fraternity) and equality of rights. Many egalitarians have been suspicious of the equality of formal rights, pointing to the substantive inequalities they may disguise or exacerbate. Critics have maintained that egalitarianism necessarily diminishes freedom in unacceptable ways. See also equal opportunity; equal protection.


Are black men interested in egalitarian relationships with black women?


I am! Count me in! Big Grin

quote:
Are domination and control part and parcel of a relationship with a black man?


I am certainly weirded out by the fact that Noah and Zakar seem to see relationships through the lens of control and domination. It sounds very juevenile. In psychology, that kind of thinking is usually equated with an early middle school socialization mindset. Where relationship between human beings are built around dominance and alpha beings. That's why you often see late elementary school kids start developing roles of bullies and those that are picked on.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
What are the compelling reasons that a man should get married when he can get the proverbial milk without having to buy the cow? There is nothing that a man cannot have as a single person that he can have as a married person, plus he has a lot more freedom.


Ideas About What Constitutes A Marriage and A Relationship Must Evolve

Brother Noah, you have some very provincial and outdated ideas about what constitutes a marriage. Your conception of marriage seems to be be limited to receiving sexual gratification, which is telling.

It's also interesting to watch you criticize this society for treating Black men as if they were sexual "play things", then turn around and make the argument that the promise of sex is the only reason why a Black man would consider marriage. So basically, you're supporting the very same stereotypes that you later criticized.

I think rather than wishing society would magically revert back to the way it was, both men and women must deal with reality of change. Nothing is stagnate in this life. You have to grow with change and expect change. And the reality is, the days when women were dependent on men for their survival are gone. You must deal with it. And you don't deal with it by imposing your values on others, judging women for putting off marriage to pursue education and careers or judging women for being comfortable with their sexuality. You do it by changing YOUR attitude and thinking.

People, marriages of convenience and circumstance are over. Our society has evolved pass this. Women no longer need to marry men for money and protection. Women want to marry for love.

I think a lot men, like yourself Brother Noah, long for traditional relationships because in those stone-age relationships it was very easy to please a woman. You didn't have to put in emotional work. All you had to do was bring home a paycheck and "hold down the fort", so to speak. Today, women are desiring more from their relationships. In order to be satisfied, they require relationships that have much more depth. They want a relationship that is going to fulfill their emotional needs.

The point is, in the very near future, marriages and relationships will be less about getting your physical needs met and more about getting your emotional, spiritual, and intellectual needs met. The more educated a couple is, the more that is going to be required of you in these areas.


yeah tfro
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Stop the Tit-for-Tat Arguments and Fault-Finding

I haven't missed anything. Brother Noah is quite clear about where he stands in this discussion. It's very typical of men to immediately attack womens' sexuality and their desire for independence as soon as the topic of Black male shortage comes up.


I agree with you that it seems very juevenile to talk about gender roles in such childish terms like "being a pussy". In psychology, equating gender roles with genitals is a sign that one's gender socialization skills are only at an early adolescent stage. Early adolescence, when boys' genitals begin to drop and their testosterone begins to kick in and change neuron patters, cause erections, and cause their voices to deepen, is the time when boys starting tying their sense of self worth and gender roles in society around genitals. Sadly, in our society, a lot of men and women alike never really evolve beyond this point of gender socialization until much later in life because our society is structured in such a way to foster this kind of mentality.

It reminds me of back when I was 13 years old and other boys used to punch each other in the arm on the playground and say "If you rub it, it means you're a pussy/girl". That's kind of what some of the arguments about feminism/dominant women/etc. is reminding me. It's interesting that equality is equated with female dominance over the male. I guess some of us have a hard time conceiving of relationships not based on power and authority.
so basically what Ep and Rowe is saying.Men are suppose change their behavior to fit the womans needs. Dam the mans needs, women no longer need a man for financial support etc, but to forfill their emotional and spiritual needs? Are you serious?? I guess men have to become more feminine to be able to relate to women. I guess thats why you got so many of our young black males running around here acting girls, and the girls going with girls acting like men. The youth are confused as hell. But this is evolution!! Get fucking real!!\

This type of thinking is nothing short or classic Eurocentric Ideology!
quote:
am certainly weirded out by the fact that Noah and Zakar seem to see relationships through the lens of control and domination. It sounds very juevenile. In psychology, that kind of thinking is usually equated with an early middle school socialization mindset. Where relationship between human beings are built around dominance and alpha beings. That's why you often see late elementary school kids start developing roles of bullies and those that are picked on.



I tell you what if you feel its domination thats your perception , not mine, and if you do not adhere to my idea of a relationship, fine, thats your right. Get a man to suites your needs period!! I never said make anyone do anything, I said what I feel because thats how I feel about it, i could give a dam about what you think is juvenille and outdated, do what you do !! Some people are Christians some are Muslims, there is not a set way of doing things for everybody, people have the right to choose their own path, if they dont want to conform to some bullsyt Eurocentric, Western Idea of so called progress and evolution thats their right!! I guess we wont be fully evolved until every man is gay and every woman is running around dressed as a man!
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
I don't know if that number is true or not but I think that the trends of capitalism and feminism have corrupted gender roles. The only thing barely holding marriage together as an institution, particularly in the black community, is tradition.

Historically, dependency on men as providers and protectors compelled every women to seek marriage. Today, due to capitalism and feminism women are no longer dependent upon men to be providers or really protectors in this modern age.

What are the compelling reasons that a man should get married when he can get the proverbial milk without having to buy the cow? There is nothing that a man cannot have as a single person that he can have as a married person, plus he has a lot more freedom.

This is an American trend, however, the only reason whites are not affected to the same degree is that the white male is still "The man" in America. The white male dominates America to the degree that white women still look at him as a provider of a better lifestyle than she can have alone.

Black men, of course, are economically the least able to provide for a women and children as many brothers cannot even support themselves. Consequently, the fact that black women economically are on par with black men in earnings, if not surpassing them, this devalues black men as providers.

The black man in America is essentially seen as a sexual physical being. The primary reason that the black man is desired is sexual and related to masculinity. Black men are like the "bad guy stud" in the "good girls" like bad guys dynamics.

This country is becoming or is a moral cesspool.


Excellent response........and i fully agree.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
so basically what Ep and Rowe is saying.Men are suppose change their behavior to fit the womans needs. Dam the mans needs


Dude, first of all, I'm a man too. Why would I, a man, support myself being dominated? I'm a male womanist, I believe in equality, not submission (on either side).

Second of all, I don't know what kind of impression I gave, but I don't believe that men should be submissive to women or the other way around. But if a "man changing his behavior" means that a man should stop trying to be controlling of a woman, then yes, men should change their behavior if their behavior means dominance and subjugation. We didn't free ourselves from the plantation just to go and subjugate each other, at least I hope.

Third, what is the excuse for all these men running around making babies and then leaving when it comes to having to take care of and support their children? Do you honestly want me to believe that men won't stick around and take care of their kids because they feel Black women are "too loose"? Give me a break. It's just that sorry ass men of my generation (18-34) haven't emotionally matured and aren't ready for a committment. They shouldn't be having unprotected sex if they aren't ready to raise a son or daughter. It has shit to do with feminism and everything to do with ignorance and laziness. "Don't wear a rubber man, that shit kills all the feeling." Well is "feeling the sex more" worth having to pay child support if you don't want to?


Fourth, I fully agree with these quotes:

quote:
Originally posted by ma'am:
I was thinking about this the other day when watching such a tribe on the Discovery channel the other day. The women had to hide from the men to speak their minds on marriage. They felt voiceless. Husbands treated them as if they had the right to subjugate them because they brought home milk and grain. Men philandered. The women felt stuck. Their story sounded so much about the stories of what it used to be like here. So I wonder: When Black Americans tell me that womanism is ridiculous, and that I should stop emasculating men embrace the social structure of "traditional Africa," is this what they want? Is this what they are telling me I want?

Ha, I'm sure there is no divorce there and they are living under what many here consider "natural." But how is that ideal?

And no, although you might believe a penis makes you all knowing, no, that type of system is not what I really want.

(BTW, this is in no way critical of the men who choose to be the provider because it's what's best for their families but rather critical of those who need to invest in psychiatric healing rather than encourage their dysfunctional-pseudoAfrocentric-wannabe-a-1800-bourgie-White-male-if-you-can't-bet-them-join-them mindsets. . .and the Black women who encourage them. I know deep down ya'll know that emotionally weak-assed men aren't sexy.)


quote:
Originally posted by ma'am:
Men feel a loss of status and emasculated by racism outside the home, so they want to feel as if they grew balls by having unquestioned power within the home. They need to feel like men, but instead of going to their bosses, coworkers, or neighbors and getting that feeling by demanding to be treated as an equal, they go to their sisters and sistas and demand to be treated as a superior. And that's why they want women to stay at home and obey their authority.

So they idealize the past. It's often not even their past (unless they've been descending from bourgeois during and since slavery)"”Most often that of those who have subjected them and Mrs. Cleaver. Some disguise their Eurocentric wet dreams by speaking about "traditional Africa." But, Africa is the most diverse of continents. There are tribes where women are the submissives, tribes where genders are more peers, and even tribes where men are the submissives. Why do they choose to be a cafeteria-African and chose some of the social structure only of the first? Is it really because they think this is best for both genders, or is it because it is so close to the old ideals of Uncle Sam?


quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
When I hear young brothers today describing themselves as if they were savage animals, it reveals a lot about what they think of themselves as men. Some of them have dispeccably low perceptions of themselves and are completely unaware of what they are truly capable of as keepers and Gods of this universe. It's terribly sad and my heart is weeping for their spiritual identities.


quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Men have no idea what it's like to be in a woman in this day and time. That is why I am baffled by the assuredness of some of you all's advice. You speak as if you have been women before, and you have not. Allow me to give you a glimpse into what it is like to be a Black woman. Many of our "choices" to pursue education and careers are not "choices" at all. The society and the suffering in our community makes pursuing an education and career absolutely necessary. After we graduate from high school, we don't get introduced to high society. We don't attend socialite functions organized to match us with eligible men in our elite social class. WE GO TO WORK and WE GO TO SCHOOL so that we can survive. Black women in particular, cannot afford to wait on Prince Charming to come and sweep us off feet and provide us with a life. A Black woman has to provide for herself. So you cannot blame Black women for doing what has to be done so that they will not be homeless, illiterate, or hungry.



quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
women no longer need a man for financial support etc, but to forfill their emotional and spiritual needs? Are you serious??


Why does a relationship need to be built upon dependency? If you want someone to be dependent upon you, become a boss or have a kid where you can have a child leaning up on daddy for their needs. It's extremely childish to base relationships upon one partner being needy and one partner having the thing which the other one lacks and is in need of. That's just asking for disaster. If a relationship between two ADULTS is based upon dependency, ultimately one partner is going to feel like they are being exploited, and if the needy partner is no longer in need of the providing partner, they can easily leave.

Is it possible for two adults to come together as equals without being dependent upon one another like a child depending upon an adult? If you want someone to need you in a dependency way, have a child and take care of it or take in a crack addict who constantly needs money for a fix.

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guess men have to become more feminine to be able to relate to women.


See, this is what I meant about you sounding like an adolescent boy. I don't hear grown fathers (ones that are around) describe an equal relationship as "being feminine/sissy". My father who has been married to my mother for 28 years never describes his relationship as having to "feminize" himself because my mother won't let him control her or dominate her. My father is a grown man who has moved beyond that "not being in control makes me a girl" bullshit. Leave that shit behind you on the playground where it belongs. That's like that shit little boys talk about saying, "If you keep your room clean it means you're a girl because only girls clean up."

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I guess thats why you got so many of our young black males running around here acting girls,


How are men today acting "like girls"?

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This type of thinking is nothing short or classic Eurocentric Ideology!


I know you ain't talking to me. Patriarchy (ie. man being in charge) largely comes from Indo-European roots. It is verified in anthropology that Africa is one of the most MATRIARCHAL continents in the world. Aside from Australia. That whole thing about the "man paying the bills and the woman depending upon him/the man not stooping down to feminine levels" is straight up from 19th century middle class families where the woman would be a homebody while the man would go to his well-paying job and "bring home the bacon".

You call me "Eurocentric" while you are the one fantasizing about a "Leave It To Beaver" family and calling it "African".
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Originally posted by ZAKAR:
I tell you what if you feel its domination


Who here has called for men to be dominated? How are men today being dominated? Black women have always been strong women, that's nothing new. Maybe the problem is that Black men today are weak and that's why they feel like Black women are "dominating" them. Black women have always had to stay strong in this country. Unlike middle class and lower-middle-income White women, Black women have never had the pleasure of laying up on a man. But Black men today want to have their fun sleeping around and don't want to have a permanent relationship with a woman. That's our brothas' fault for being weak little boys who can't beyond the stage where they have the urge to satisfy irresponsible sexual urges, not our sistas.

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bullsyt Eurocentric, Western Idea of so called progress and evolution thats their right!! I guess we wont be fully evolved until every man is gay and every woman is running around dressed as a man!


You can scream "Eurocentrism" all you want, but the fact remains that the type of relationships you want (man dominant, women dependent upon the man which you code as "believing in him", women being homebodies) is a distinctly WESTERN IDEA. You can scream Western and Eurocentrism all you want, but you are the one having nostalgia over an age that never existed where Black families were like Leave It To Beaver.


I think this quote from HeruStar sums it up:

quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:
For one, egalatarianism is uncomfortable.


And there it is. The problem lies in that some men crave relationships where they are in power over another human being. If you have a lust for power and authority, go get a servant. For the rest of us men who don't have an inferiority complex and don't feel the need to rule over others, let us take the sistas you other brothas don't want. We'll be just fine, thank you.
I dont know all the other shyt you talking about. And the continent of Africa being Matriarchal in what sense? What countries exactly in Africa are you talking about, give me some examples of these relationships? You say you are a man thats a womanist, what kind of shyt is that??? Anyway

This is what I said and I stand by it!!


tell you what if you feel its domination thats your perception , not mine, and if you do not adhere to my idea of a relationship, fine, thats your right. Get a man to suites your needs period!! I never said make anyone do anything, I said what I feel because thats how I feel about it, i could give a dam about what you think is juvenille and outdated, do what you do !! Some people are Christians some are Muslims, there is not a set way of doing things for everybody, people have the right to choose their own path, if they dont want to conform to some bullsyt Eurocentric, Western Idea of so called progress and evolution thats their right!! I guess we wont be fully evolved until every man is gay and every woman is running around dressed as a man!
I said this to Zakar, and now I say this to all the brothas who feel that single Black women is the fault of our sistas for not letting brothas rule over them. HeruStar told himself and shamed the Devil, so let me repeat it:

quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:

For one, egalatarianism is uncomfortable....

...And it's ugly.

Similar to a two-headed dragon. Anything with two heads just doesn't look right. How do they get anything accomplished?



There it is. The problem lies in that some men crave relationships where they are in power over another human being. Some people feel so little about themselves that they can't feel comfortable unless they are in charge with their foot on someone's neck (symbolically). Maybe it's because of Judeo-Christian/Islamic culture which preaches of a masculine authoritarian/dictator-like Deity who has absolute power over Humanity. Maybe this internalizes in feeling the need for human relationships to be based on power and authority. I don't know.

If you have a lust for power and authority, go get a servant or even a slave. For the rest of us men who don't have an inferiority complex and don't feel the need to rule over others, let us take the sistas you other brothas don't want. We'll be just fine, thank you.

It's just a goddamn shame that our ancestors lost life and limb (LITERALLY) for some of our brothas today to sit up here and get a hard-on fantasizing about relationships based on servitude and dominance. Apparently we've taken in more of the ugly traits of our oppressors than we want to admit. More than just the problem with some our brothas and sistas idolizing White Beauty in the form of color-complexes in the Black community. Apparently we have some brothas salivating after power/dominance/hierarchy-based human relationships.
Africans were the first human beings on Earth First of all , and you cant show men anywhere in Africa where you have a Relationship that men dont have traditional roles as well as women. You can call it Patriarch, Matriarchy or any other Eurocentric defintion but the fact of the matter anywhere you go in the World The Man is the Head of the Household!! Except with the so called American Black man and Black Woman, now let the chips fall where they may.This is a direct result of the Willie Lynch doctrine (not that the actually letter is real) but the philosophy is being played out to this very day.

You can call it ruling over a woman or whatever I dont. Respect is #1 in any relationship, and everyone I've been in Ive respected my woman. I dont have any children im not taking care of, so Im not responsible for what other brohers do.

Many women feel the same as I do, Many women understand and want to submitt to their husbands,not submitting like being a doormat, but understand a mans nature and allows him to be in a position of leadership so if these types of women work for me, whats wrong with that? If you want to practice womanist, practice it, but you cant force that shyt down everyones throat because you believe in some feminism shyt!
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Originally posted by ZAKAR:
so basically what Ep and Rowe is saying.Men are suppose change their behavior to fit the womans needs. Dam the mans needs, women no longer need a man for financial support etc, but to forfill their emotional and spiritual needs? Are you serious?? I guess men have to become more feminine to be able to relate to women. I guess thats why you got so many of our young black males running around here acting girls, and the girls going with girls acting like men. The youth are confused as hell. But this is evolution!! Get fucking real!!\

This type of thinking is nothing short or classic Eurocentric Ideology!



How exactly is this eurocentric??? It wasn't until about 40-50 years ago that life in the west was like this(due female liberation and feminism).
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
I dont know all the other shyt you talking about. And the continent of Africa being Matriarchal in what sense? What countries exactly in Africa are you talking about, give me some examples of these relationships? You say you are a man thats a womanist, what kind of shyt is that???


A man who is a womanist is a man who believes in equality between men and women. I've grown beyond playground Boys vs. Girls mentality. Maybe you need to do the same.

As for your assanine question about Africa, I say assanine because you present yourself as a man who knows much about Africa, but here you are playing dumb and asking me questions about Africa that only someone with little knowledge of our homeland would ask, here. Maybe you will listen to the words of our dearly departed brother Cheikh Anta Diop:

http://nigeriaworld.com/articles/2006/feb/270.html

quote:
For Diop, the key institution that defines and rationalises social existence in Kemet and the rest of Africa is matriarchy. Diop theorises that matriarchy evolved from the dominant position of agriculture in Africa and the central role women played in its development. This resulted in a socio-political economy, which Diop describes as a "southern cradle" civilisation. Here, the woman, who exercises a robust economic power, is primary and not an "appendage" of the man. She "transmits political rights. This derives from the general idea that heredity is effective only matrilineally." Motherhood is revered. As a result, a societal consensus which emphasises a complementary gender relation within the home and outside – in the occupations and the workings of the state – is the norm or the goal expressly sought after, exemplified, for instance, in Igbo history, as the distinguishing scholarships of Kamena Okonjo, Ifi Amadiume and Okwuonicha Femi Nzegwu attest. Gender complementarity in society is also enhanced by the sheer multitude of mutually shared gods and goddesses which define, regulate and empower the religious and spiritual life of female and male alike. In the wake of the Muslim/Arab invasion of northern and later western Africa (beginning from the 7th century AD), however, the age long African matriarchy begins to be dislodged as the invaders entrench a patriarchal social relation consistent with what Diop describes as a cardinal feature of the "northern cradle" civilisation of the Euro-Asian World.


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tell you what if you feel its domination thats your perception , not mine,


Don't try to cop out and reduce this relativity. Some things are what they are, regardless of what you feel about it. A rock is a rock. And a relationship where one human is dependent (such as financially) upon the other is a form of domination. Domination is when one party has power over the other.

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Get a man to suites your needs period!!


Sorry, but I am not gay. I'm a man and I'm only romantically/sexually attracted to women.

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i could give a dam about what you think is juvenille


I don't have to think, I recently took a Psychology class and gender development was one of the things we studied. Finding self-identity through power and gentials (in males) is part of the adolescent stage that a boy goes through after his testicles drop. His sense of pride and self-worth revols around his phallus and he views relationships in terms of power. He feels humans can only dominate or submit, and to be less than dominant is to be submissive. Usually this invokes a subconcious image or feeling that his phallic member is not being respected properly. That's why you often hear immature young men who try to act thuggish respond to being chastized or ordered around by phallic-minded comments like "Why are you trying to cut my dick/balls off?" Because their sense of self-worth still revolves around other people symbolically kneeling before their symbolic phallic member by letting them be dominant. This is especially noticeable in gangsters who grab their privates as a gesture of being an alpha male/dominant.


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and outdated, do what you do !! Some people are Christians some are Muslims, there is not a set way of doing things for everybody, people have the right to choose their own path,


This isn't a simple matter of equally respectable choices. This is a question of whether or not human relationships need an authoritarian structure. This is a matter or human freedom and self-determination.

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if they dont want to conform to some bullsyt Eurocentric, Western Idea of so called progress and evolution thats their right!! I guess we wont be fully evolved until every man is gay and every woman is running around dressed as a man!


Like I said, you are the most Eurocentric person in here right now.
Okay I will say it again!

[quote]Africans were the first human beings on Earth First of all , and you cant show men anywhere in Africa where you have a Relationship that men dont have traditional roles as well as women. You can call it Patriarch, Matriarchy or any other Eurocentric defintion but the fact of the matter anywhere you go in the World The Man is the Head of the Household!! Except with the so called American Black man and Black Woman, now let the chips fall where they may.This is a direct result of the Willie Lynch doctrine (not that the actually letter is real) but the philosophy is being played out to this very day.


You can call it ruling over a woman or whatever I dont. Respect is #1 in any relationship, and everyone I've been in Ive respected my woman. I dont have any children im not taking care of, so Im not responsible for what other brohers do.
quote:
Originally posted by Sweetwuzzy:
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
so basically what Ep and Rowe is saying.Men are suppose change their behavior to fit the womans needs. Dam the mans needs, women no longer need a man for financial support etc, but to forfill their emotional and spiritual needs? Are you serious?? I guess men have to become more feminine to be able to relate to women. I guess thats why you got so many of our young black males running around here acting girls, and the girls going with girls acting like men. The youth are confused as hell. But this is evolution!! Get fucking real!!\

This type of thinking is nothing short or classic Eurocentric Ideology!



How exactly is this eurocentric??? It wasn't until about 40-50 years ago that life in the west was like this(due female liberation and feminism).


That's what I've been asking. Historically, Western culture was VERY male dominated. It still is to a very large extent. Women only have symbolic equal social freedom to men (though there are still heavy social stigmas for women acting outside of submissive behavior). There are still many barriers to women having the same kind of real power (poltical, economic, religious) that men do. Few Western countries have had a female leader. And this goes back to feudal times.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
Okay I will say it again!

[quote]Africans were the first human beings on Earth First of all , and you cant show men anywhere in Africa where you have a Relationship that men dont have traditional roles as well as women. You can call it Patriarch, Matriarchy or any other Eurocentric defintion but the fact of the matter anywhere you go in the World The Man is the Head of the Household!! Except with the so called American Black man and Black Woman, now let the chips fall where they may.This is a direct result of the Willie Lynch doctrine (not that the actually letter is real) but the philosophy is being played out to this very day.


You can call it ruling over a woman or whatever I dont. Respect is #1 in any relationship, and everyone I've been in Ive respected my woman. I dont have any children im not taking care of, so Im not responsible for what other brohers do.


And I'll say this again:

http://nigeriaworld.com/articles/2006/feb/270.html

I think Brother Diop has more wisdom on this topic than either of us.
no where in there does it say Men were not in leadership position. Where did it say that women didnt have roles and men had roles, All it is saying it Man respected and cherished his woman. My point dude, is man and woman complement each other not duplicate, women are different from men, psychologically and biologically. So if im in a relationship that works for me and I dont mistreat my woman what the hell is wrong with that?

what you have bought into is that bullshyt feminist ideology that white women started

not only do I know about AFrica and Diop and many others , Ive dated African women from various parts of the continent so that feminist shyt you talking dont wash

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