Warning: @Earth and Sky....my brotha! I suggest you get some coffee and kick back cuz my response to you in this discussion is very long but necessary.
And until Arabs Muslim and Nonmuslims and black moslems here in America recognize that WOMEN are NOT chattel or commodities or subhumans, I personally will continue to BLAME Arabs be they muslims or otherwise for the mass destruction of BLACK PEOPLE in Africa.
I'm confused by this statement. Most Muslims I know do not view or treat women as chattel, as a commodity, or as subhumans. As stated previously, I've listened to Louis Farrakhan's speeches in which he has spoken strongly against the denigration, disrespect, and oppression of women, here and elsewhere. Many Muslims, whom I know, treat women with far more respect than Christians do.
And that depends on what you mean by respect. If they provide for their women, treat them with their form of dignity, why is it that many of these Muslim women have RULES they must abide by? It shouldn't be forced or converted rules. My father was a Muslim during the reign of Malcolm X and I never felt because I was a girl that I was limited in my freedom as a human being.
You see my brotha....you're not a woman or female....you have empathy true....but! You don't know what it may feel like being told that you are NOT equal to the man you marry or the male infant you give birth to. And why should women be part of any religion if they are not given their human freedom? In some Arabs countries, women are prohibited to drive...it's changing but it is changing slowly. And the reason for this denial? The men perspective believes if women are given rights to drive they will be having sex in the back seat of their cars. How ridiculous! The real reason? They do not WANT women to know what it FEELS like to have personal FREEDOM.
The USA is considered a Christian nation. How does it value women, black women in particular? Porn, which demeans and devalues women, is allowed (per freedom of speech) to flourish in a supposedly Christian nation. Porn is broadcast on television, cinemas, on the internet, portrayed in games, and printed in magazines and smut books 24/7.
Porn is done underground in the Arab world like anything else illegal, my brotha. On the surface, the law there is cruel if caught. But there? It is more of a man's world than any other place on the globe. So they can do anything they want....as long as they don't get caught and don't get caught in public with a woman not a family member by the moral police. No?
Look how women are portrayed on television and on the movie screen in a supposedly Christian nation. Black women are constantly devalued, made mockery of, disrespected, and denigrated in the media. We are referred to as B----es, whores, etc. in music (rap) videos. The way we are portrayed is simply awful.
I agree. And it's most men doing this. It has become a sign of passage.
Women in this country are not treated with respect. It is only an illusion of respect; otherwise, women in the entertainment business wouldn't feel compelled to degrade themselves.
Islam cannot be blamed for the way women are treated in this country. The funny thing is that the Bible (Book of Leviticus?) states that women should dress modestly and cover their hair.
I'm not blaming a dogma. I'm BLAMING men. Why should WOMEN cover their hair? Why should they COVER anything they don't want to cover just cuz it is written in a book? There is a REASON why she has hair....it is hers to do what she wishes. Man does what he wants with his and he is not COVERED up. Why must she be? Why must Man be a WOMAN'S dictator? We know why.
How many Christian women dress modestly and cover their hair?
Why are these ridiculous RULES placed on women? They are NOT slaves, commodities or animals. They should have the ability to dress they way they want. It is man who do not have CONTROL over his behavior when looking at women. Otherwise, women wouldn't be targeted or preyed on. How can you prey on your own speices and then blame the catch? This is like blaming the women for men's behavior. That ain't gonna fly with me cuz I taught my boys to ALWAYS respect women and if they are in a situation where violence might occur? Run for the hills. That's respect my brotha.
Not being dictated to about how to dress or to act is a HUMAN right. Additionally, I'm not blaming RELIGION. I'm pointing to the MEN behind those religions. Cuz it is THEIR religion. And they are the biggest hyprocrites. Cuz they say one thing and do another entirely.....and most times the WOMEN are the ones thrown under the bus....not the men.
I have to disagree with you about Arabs being solely responsible for the destruction of Africa.
You can disagree doesn't make it true.
Western Imperialism, without a doubt (beginning with colonialism), is primarily responsible for the destruction of Africa.
I disagree my brotha. Simply cuz Arabs was the human cancer that started this whole mess in Africa. And this cancer spread maybe not across the continent only because of medical reasons. Plus the Arab slave trade TAUGHT the Europeans all the ins and outs of slavery since they had mastered the practice. And during the time Arabs was busying conquering Asia and portion of Africa, 200 years later the Crusades were implemented by Europe and Arabs. Fighting over who's God is the right God [which lasted up to the 20th century]...but in the meantime in between time Europe began struggling with the bubonic plague epidemic and other infectious diseases as a ramification of war and poor sanitation which led to losing half the population [around 25 to 30 million people].
And before Europeans could get back on their feet, they were slapped with the Little Ice age beginning in the 16th century where most of Europe was freezing and starving. How could they possibly be able to do what you're suggesting when all this stuff was going on in their continent? Fact is my brotha, the colonization of Africa by Europeans began in the 19th century during the scrambling of Africa era which is not the same as they involvement in the slave trade..
Which group invaded all of Africa?
Well the Arab conquest collapsed in the 17th century. But the Arabs had already set the stage for Europeans to come in once the chill from Europe was gone. Although their jihad had ended, the Arabs were still selling slaves to Europeans which began the colonization of the Americas and the New World and subsequently the interior of Africa at that point was up for grabs. And it was the discovery of quinone[sp] that allowed the Europeans to go deeper into the bowels of Africa. Before then, they were stopped by malaria.
Stealing its people and resources?
That would be the Arabs. Although the Arabs wanted slaves for domestic purposes and to fill their army base, they are the main ones who stole the African Egyptain's identity as their own. Even though Alexander the Great stole the sacred strolls of the Mystery temples and the science and education of Egypt in the BC era, it was the Arabs who initially raped the black identity of North Africa.
Setting up a system of apartheid?
This occurred after the fact, my brotha. Once the Europeans got their bearings....it was on then.
Assassinated legitimate leaders like Patrice Lumumba? Which group continues to meddle in the affairs of African countries, makes plans to take out certain leaders of certain African countries, places inhumane sanctions on certain African countries, and continues to steal Africa's resources?
Well....they got in. They are descendants of neanderthals....I mean what do you expect? Africa is a place of plenty. After the Arabs stopped raping Africa, it was the Europeans' turn. But they had a mutual silent agreement...well after the crusades anyway. I don't care what anybody says. The fact that this group are both fair skinned and can travel throughout the world as power moguels....Arabs are the FIRST ones to limited Africans. Cuz if you had dark skin, you were considered a slave and unworthy. And it's been that way every since. No?
The sphere of Arab influence in Africa has always been limited.
For a reason my brotha. They had most of Asia, the top portion and east side of upper Africa.
Western Imperialism ensures that it remains that way.
Well....I look at it differently...as you can see.
It is hypocritical for this country to denounce human rights abuses in Darfur (or elsewhere) while turning a blind eye to the human rights abuses being done to blacks in its own backyard!
I agree with that! And the rules set forth for women in Islam, Christanity, Hindus etc are MAN based. And that should be eradicated. No human OWNS another human. Not even parents own their children. We are all free spirits but when religion comes into the mix that's where WOMEN are thrown under the bus because they are considered the weaker sex-not the respected sex for bring life into the world. And I got news for men....there is absolutely NOTHING weak about giving birth, raising children and providing a safe place-women do that all day long. And that shouldn't be minimized. But it is.
And as woman, a mother, a daughter of both Muslim and Christian parents, you gotta believe that I have heard it all when it pertains to a woman's duty. A man doesn't have that right especially when he is born from her-now if he was born from a man? A whole different party. But since that's not the case, how are men gonna betray the only SOURCE that can bring life in the world? And then justifying enslaving her based on MAN'S religious convictions not hers. That my brotha is hypocritical. And cruel to the mothers all over this planet.
I have to disagree. Christianity has thrown all black people (male and female) under the bus, having us worshiping whites, thinking we are cursed, etc.
No disrespect my brotha. Pleasssssssssse. True. Christianity did a lot of horrific things to black Africans. I will agree....but the one thing it did not do[although furgitive black men were hunted and castrated for escaping the plantation), massa did not implement FGM on the female African slave. If he had, we will STILL be slaves cuz for the obvious reasons. And since that didn't happen, the voice that was wacked off back in Africa....screamed loudly in the states until we were FREE and then a hundred years later were given civil/human rights. Africans who were the slaves of the Arab Slave Trade did not HAVE that luxury. And still don't. No?
Which black religious leaders are justifying or ignoring this? I haven't personally heard of any black religious leader condone or justify the crimes against black Africans. I've heard white racists condone and justify them, though.
Well off the top of my head I can truly say most Black men are saying nothing cuz they are cowards-they are turning the other cheek at black women's expense. Please look at black history in this country and when you do you will find WOMEN risking their lives to protect their people....while a lot of black men were shaking in their boots for fear of lynching...so instead fighting for our freedom many of em decided to start preaching about God. That was easier and would make massa feel like threatened. I mean don't get me wrong lynching is a good reason to be afraid however, you have to have vision for your people and sometimes that means self-sacrafice and standing in your truth-which many upon many preachers REFUSED to do. No?
How many men in this country have watched, let alone allowed, their female infants be castrated (mutilated)?
FGM is prohibited in this country. One of the beautiful perks of being on the other side of this sexual brutality against women. However, ask that question to the brothas in Darfur where 65-70% of women and female infants are affected.
All men are not like that, even in some of those countries that practice FGM!!!
Oh yeah? Which country specifically has MEN refusing to allow their female infant to take part in that? I'm curious. Cuz last I researched there has not been ANY men coming forward and providing protection for their innocent children. Not one. You know somethin I don't know?
Again, I am not convinced that all men are not like that otherwise FGM would not STILL be a practice hidden behind the veil of culture, custom or tradition on the tongue of religion. That's a man thang to justifiy it and say that it is God's will. Trust and believe if men were getting their penises wacked off? This practice would have been eradicated upon inception instead of being an ongoing slaughtering thousands of years later. Even when castration was the "it" thing as one of the five punishments for prisioners of war back in the day....there were a lot of men willfully castrating themseleves as proof of loyalty and commitment to the King. This occurred in China, Japan and the Middle East...but! I don't wanna go off base with this so I'm gonna just stop here.
It's not fair to tarnish all men, everywhere, for the behavior of some.
Not some my brotha. Merely ummm lemme see. Only those brothas in 34 countries in Africa; men in the 13-14 countries in the Middle East; and oh ho looky here the men in 9 countries in Asia. And if you look at world history, in places where Arabs conquered, FGM was placed on the women as a slave method to control their sexual desires and drive..to change what men consider aggressive behavior to passive-you do ANIMALS like that...not human beings. No matter what reasons men are comfortable with [cuz it is not for the most part happening to them] it is WRONG to mutilated anyone for self-serving purposes. Folks have a RIGHT to their life and BODY parts. Bottom line. Okay you say it's not a God practice, then why are men who are sooooo committed to their God allowing this human cruelty to occur to their family? What is the reasonable explanation? For me, it's slavery of women; ownership of women; using the patriarchal religion to justify controlling all areas of women's activity-why?
I agree that FGM is a horrific practice that needs to end NOW; however, it has nothing to do with God. God didn't tell anyone to carry out this horrific deed against females. Human beings are solely responsible for this. God gave each of us freedom to choose. Freedom to believe in Him or not. He gave us a BRAIN. What we decide to do with our brains is up to us. All God wants from us is to be righteous and to obey His (true, not made-up by man and claimed to be from God) commandments (don't steal, murder, etc.). If we choose to be unrighteous, we have to take responsibility for the consequences of our actions. God doesn't have to come down here to punish us for everything because there is this little thing called 'cause and effect.' Human beings are responsible for this Hell on earth, not God.
My brotha that sounds soooooooo wonderful...but! That ain't the world I live in. Folks are not even THINKING about consequences to their behavior-hell that's the last thing on their minds. The only thought? Themselves! What can "I" get outta of it? "So if I sell my daughter in the guise of arranged marriage (dowry) to help take care of the rest of the family even though she is only 9 years old, saying it's God's will even if it isn't true." My question: how is the 9 year old gonna know its a lie on God? And it is this type of thing that has been passed down from generation to generation. I call it pimping your own people. And true it FGM not a religion practice[cuz India practice FGM is some regions and many of them are Hindus...) however, it's NOT hard to tell where this sort of thing derived cuz India was conquered by the Arabs in the 7th century and this when the practice of FGM began.
And you're right there is a thing called cause and effect and is probably why many of these places are still primitive and backwards in their thinking and living and culture remains undeveloped...cuz you put out cruelty not only do you get back but you don't grow or expand, however, if you are unable to understand the effect of the wrong you caused how can you feel the ramifications of wrong behavior? You don't cuz everyone else around you are doing the same. And if shyte happens, well hell, that's just part of life they tell you. But my point is, a child doesn't know anything about gravity until you tell him...so in the meantime he may decide to ride his bike on a picket fence just cuz it excites him to do so. As in the many cases in patriarchal societies where women have no human rights to their own lives. It excites men to know they CONTROL something. Even if it's their own wives and children. Pitiful.
FGM is not a religious practice. It is a cultural practice. There is no religion that I am aware of that actually states that females should be mutilated in such a fashion.
You're right it is not a religious practice. It is a slave practice...again that is now hidden behind the veil of culture, custom and tradition i.e. religion. And most times, these customs, cultures and traditions have a Muslim base. Most Africans who HAVE to participate in this practice? Land was conquered by the Arabs. And if you look at the geographic locations of this heinous act throughout the world, you will see it is solely done in places the Arabs conquered. No?
Religion is supposed to be about saving people but, like I said, it has been corrupted or hijacked by imperfect human beings who have difficulty doing the right thing. Men are supposed to be the true protectors of family but, unfortunately, this world is currently FUBAR. Every man is not doing his job. Some seem to lack interest. Some actually prey on women and children.
Just curious. What is FUBAR? But come on my brotha. All this stuff about the sexual predation of religion against children has been all over the news for several years. Priests/preachers/monks have been FINALLY exposed as pedophiles or rapists they are. The catholic church has paid MILLIONS of dollars to people who have been under this hammer of sexual abuse and more folks continue to come forward. Cults disguised themselves as children of God or advocates of God are really sick men using women and children for their sexual ploys. Remember Jim Jones? Bishop Jones? Come on. There is toooo many examples to give you and I know you know what I'm talking about. And it ain't gonna fly saying " oh it's not all men or all churches or all temples....the bottom line FGM continues to happen under our watch. And FGM is one of those things where people who are not directly affected think it could NEVER happen to them. And then there are places where this sort of thing is kept quiet. It has taken years to get Arab and African communities to even discussed FGM. And even now, many STILL hide behind so-called tradition by saying "oh it's been done for years." Yeah but is it RIGHT? That would be a helllllllllllll no!
Kocolicious, this world hasn't always been like this. It will not remain in this messed up state forever.
I know. I know we live in a cycle world. Where it will come around again where there will be peace and social cooperation but I am sure that FGM will not be eradicated in my lifetime or even in my grandchildren's lifetime. And it seems the more we become an advance civilization, the more barbaric acts appear against women and children. It is this mindset that must be eradicated. As a FGM advocate, I have no faith. Cuz thus far, no religion has stopped it or bothered to condemn it from what I've been hearing. Men need to REALLY understand that women are the other half of humanity or who they are as human beings. And if men continue to look the other way because they got their penises in check? As cycles do? It will come right back around and bite them in places of rage and human disrespect. And the million question will be? Who will listen to them? Cuz it's acoming. Trust and believe. But!