The externilization of Good and Success and The externilization of Evil and Failure.

In the spirit of the philosophical debate about what is truth, I ask the question what makes it ok to externalize good and success while the externalization of evil and failure is not ok. In our current society it is ok and acceptable to thank God, for the good that one does and receive. It is also ok to thank ones parents and teachers for their contributions to any academic success one have. However if one was to stand up and say, The devil made me do it, my parents is responsible for my Failure and the teachers I had in school only compounded the problems I had with my parents and they too are responsible for my failure, this person would be seen as a lunatic and as blaming others for his or her failure.

If it is ok, and acceptable to externalize good and success, should not it be ok and acceptable to externalize evil and failure. At the recent Espy awards, Carrillo (sp) the basketball player from the team that won the NCAA title said in accepting his Espy that he thanks himself because were it not for himself the hard work he did would not have gotten accomplish. I laughed like crazy listening to him say this but the truth is he is correct. He did thank other people for their contributions to his success but he took it a step further that I have not seen anyone else before him take it and that is thanking himself for his success. This of course is the internalization of success which is often seen as arrogance and conceit. This is also shunned in our current society. The internalization of success often is seen as being ungrateful and arrogant. To sum it up, one should not internalize success, one should not externalize evil and failure but one should always externalize good and success.

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When our most educated, and best prepared turn their back on our community, stagnation sets in and the men and women who are not the most educated and not the most prepared become the example for those coming behind them. It is up to those of us who are not rich and well off but are educated and prepared to educate our youth and prepare them for what they will face when entering the world.



More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem

[This message was edited by Faheem on August 22, 2003 at 03:32 PM.]
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There are Negroes who will never fight for freedom. There are Negroes who will seek profit for themselves from the struggle. There are even some Negroes who will cooperate with the oppressors. The hammer blows of discrimination, poverty, and segregation must warp and corrupt some. No one can pretend that because a people may be oppressed, every individual member is virtuous and worthy. Martin Luther King

More to come later! Your Brother Faheem
Original Post
That's a very profound question. One that I have never pondered before....Hmmmm. You are correct in that if one believes in religion and therefore externalizes personal success to God, that those who are also religious should therefore externalize personal failure to the devil. We do not do this as individuals (externailize failures to the devil), but I think that we tend to do it more in groups. For example: Black people know that through a conduit here on earth, that our disproportionate failures as a people were caused by the devil. Mad

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
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Noah The African in America
It is definitely an interesting question Noah; it calls into question the existence of an evil entity called devil and what powers he has and if there is no Devil that is responsible for all things bad does that mean God is responsible for the good and the bad. No one attributes bad to God; we merely sum it up as his will. The externalization of good takes on new form when you think of something like Santa Clause where Parents spend there hard earned money on gifts for their children and then says someone else did it. On the other hand you have this elusive dude called the Devil who allegedly make people do bad things and then God punish you for doing bad things by sending you to hell to be with the Devil and the devil is low down dirty cat, he then allegedly punish you for doing the evil he made you do. Does that make sense? Hardly.

However this question is not a religious one, it is a philosophical one that questions the idea or the need to externalize good and success and evil and failure.

While racism is a continued problem in America, using racism as the reason for ones failure is the externalization of failure and regardless of who is to blame externally for ones failure, the idea of external blame itself is rejected. Thus unless the racism that lead to ones failure is overt and undeniable the accuser will likely be seen as someone trying to Blame someone else for his or her failure. However if one is successful as in the case of many Black folk who now articulate white thought and use their success as proof that the system work, hence externalizing good to the system, this is giving a pass and acceptable thus propping the system up as working without any proof that the system actually worked on their behalf. What we have here is the successful person him or herself being used as proof that the system work and as evidence against the larger number of people who say the system is broken and responsible for their failure, however these individuals themselves is not proof enough that the system is broken, more evidence is needed .

Does this explain why the idea that America and its institutions are racist is rejected? because by saying they are racist hints at these things being responsible for the failure of many men and women thus allowing people to externalize their failure?

-------------------------
When our most educated, and best prepared turn their back on our community, stagnation sets in and the men and women who are not the most educated and not the most prepared become the example for those coming behind them. It is up to those of us who are not rich and well off but are educated and prepared to educate our youth and prepare them for what they will face when entering the world.



More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
It's an extremely interesting question indeed. Here's my take:

Externalizing failure goes against our nature. Before civilization, humanity (like all other animals) faced a constant struggle for survival, where evry externality basically posed a threat to ones existence. If we were wired to externalize failure, we probably never would've succeeded to reach the point of civilization. We probably would've excused ourselves into extinction, blaming every bear, every sabre-toothed tiger, every hurricane, and every infection, every time harm befell us.

In fact, even when we did blame externalities, we often blamed ourselves for allowing the externality. Elegba may have brought the misfortune we're suffering, but it's our fault for not pleasing Elegba in the first place. Even when weplace blame elsewhere, our internal understanding of the main attribute that enables us to survive -- our ability to choose how we respond to what happens to us -- is so strongly grounded into our being that we still placed the ultimate responsibility on ourselves, for events we could never have prevented.

Humans lack "instinct," largely relying on choice as the primary response to stimulus. That reliance on choice places a heavy responsibility on our exercise of free will. This means that free will, freedom of action, and choice are essential to our survival, at least in pre-history it was. It goes heavily against the grain of our wiring to blame externalities for our failures. On the other hand, I'm sure most people who succeed honestly deep down know that it was their hard work that led to their own success. You may have been given an opportunity, but it was you who used the opportunity. Crediting externalities for our successes may be nothing more than a reflection of modesty. Or, better yet, it may be a reflection of the need to avoid looking arrogant. Recording artists know that the record companies sign them because they think they can make money. So if they thank Clive Davis for taking a chance on their talent, they know that Clive wasn't doing it out of kindness; "that Alicia Keys is such a sweet kid that I think I'll sign her to my label. Who knows? Maybe she'll surprise me and turn out to have talent and do okay." <-- That didn't happen, and Alicia Keys knows it.
Here's different approach:

Success is not an entitlement. No matter how hard we work, we can still fail. Too many things can happen to be surprised when all cylinders aren't working properly. Crops aren't OBLIGATED to grow, no matter how hard we work to make it happen.

On the other hand, the decision not to ameliorate hardship DOES obligate failure to happen. Allowing oneself to be acted upon, with no resistance whatsoever, creates a virtual guarantee of failure.

Therefore, good fortune is usually seen as a blessing, involving some level of "good luck." Bad fortune, at least in the face of failure to do anything about externalities, is the natural result of failure to do anything about them. If you can avoid failure by fighting the externalities, and you choose not to fight them, then blaming the externalities is counterintuitive.
This question I guess is about some type of social taboo. The whole idea of making "good" choices is ingrained in us from the earliest of ages.

It's essentially about two similar if not the same things:
  • Taking Responsibility (for our "bad" actions)

  • Taking Credit (for the "good" results of our actions)
In either case, some act(s) of commission or ommission on our part is to blame or responsible. I think what VOX said is perhaps what drives the idea that "we should not blame things on the devil". (It always sounds funny when I hear from religious folk: "Ooohhh! The Devil be workin'! Don't he??")

"Our ability to choose how we respond to what happens to us" or perhaps the expectation that we "make the most out of what we got" or "the hand that's been dealt to us" seems exist to propell us forward as to not spiral into fatalism and to form the opinion that we are "hopeless" or hapless.

Yeah... there does seem to be the idea that we all have the same power to choose our "path" and when someone "chooses" the path of 'evil' they are deemed to purposely avoided the 'good'. When someone 'chooses' the path that is 'good', our idea that we do not "know" the way behooves us to credit others for 'helping' to show us "the way".

I guess that puts the idea of a "self-made man" into question or, I guess, justifies it.

Interesting...
I understand your points, but I am going to go against the grain here and put what Vox posted under scrutiny. When we talk about those things that happen in nature that cause humans to use our survival instincts it would be hard to externalize blame for our failure to survive against acts of nature and or animals whose instincts is to survive as well. So in the scenario of the saber-tooth tiger I understand. However the dilemmas we are presented with today is not so much about nature or human instincts; it is more about survival using a system or government set up by human intelligence.

I believe there is a difference in externalizing blame to those things that we have no control over as humans and externalizing blame to those things that we as humans have control over and can change. For example: One would not get anywhere for externalizing blame for the destruction a tornado or hurricane left behind. Nor would one get any where if trying to externalize blame to a system or thing that seemingly produces more success than failure. Hence an upcoming artist blaming Clive Davis for the failure of their album when it can be proven that the same amount of time and resources was given to their project as was giving to successful artist like Alicia Keys. Juxtapose this with the externalizing of blame to the educational system in poor communities that seemingly produce a high number of failures in contrast to affluent communities that seemingly have more success from their school system. We compare resources, teachers' salary, parent participation and we find that affluent children parents are not as involved in their children education as we would like to believe because they are working; the poorer children parents are not as involved, the difference is they are possibly unemployed. Surely there are many variables we can consider from values held by the parents to the example the parents are setting. However recently I heard a woman provide a different way to look at situations like this.

This woman stated how Asthma is a big problem in poor inner city areas due to the pollutants that are dumped in these areas intentionally and unintentionally. We know that these poor children suffer more from asthma than children in affluent areas; however we do not hear anyone saying these children is more incline to get asthma because of their family values or their breathing technique. The educational system in many poor areas is polluted with low expectation from teachers, poor curriculums, and unqualified teachers and in many areas there is a lack of resources. So why do we allow blame to be placed on family values, parent participation and the many other things? So maybe there is a time when externalizing blame is ok, because many of us accept and believe it is not the school and the educational system but it is the parents, the culture and family values, thus blaming the child and his family for the child's failure.

Is it possible that the many systems that contribute to the failure, destruction and marginalization of certain segments of the population are free to do as they please because the externalization of blame is not something that is acceptable in our society? Knowing that simply saying that someone is not taking responsibility for their own actions and they lack values and live in a culture of destruction allow for systems whatever it may be to avoid being held responsible for its actions and actions produced because of the way the system is set up? Think about it! Our very nature can be used against us, by intelligent but deceitful humans who know and understand that placing blame on the individual falls right in line with our thinking that externalizing blame is unacceptable, Thus they are free to lie, cheat, steal and destroy as they please.

-------------------------
When our most educated, and best prepared turn their back on our community, stagnation sets in and the men and women who are not the most educated and not the most prepared become the example for those coming behind them. It is up to those of us who are not rich and well off but are educated and prepared to educate our youth and prepare them for what they will face when entering the world.



More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
I think that we live in a vacuum of interdependencies and actions and reactions. In such a world, no man is an island and can thus be the sole creator of success or failure. Michael Jordan's skills my be a product of Michael Jordan, but his success was the creation of many that he interacted with in his life, for we all know for every person with superstar athletic talent who makes it, there are probably 1000 with the same potential who do not, for one reason or the other.

I think the answer is as you have said Faheem. We have been socially conditioned to see those who external success as being humble, while at the same time seeing people who externalize failure as being excuse makers. I think humans have evolved with a belief in a higher power or force that controlled fate. This usually manifested in paganism. When things went will, the "Gods" were happy and when things went bad, the "Gods" were upset. Thus, humans often made sacrifices to the "Gods", in order that they have good fortune via reciprocity.

This is really an interesting question because if one believes in a higher power that manifest favor (good) and disfavor (bad), then to legitimize the externalizing of success is to legitimize the externalizing of failure. I think that black people have a tendency to externalize success and failure more so than do whites. Whites tends to see themselves as the ultimate power in the universe and thus, they internalize success and failure more. I think that when you external success and failure that you have acknowledged and humbled yourself to the higher powers of the universe and those who internalize success and failure are exalting their ranking in the order and scheme of the universe.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
(((' (((-((('' ((((
Noah The African in America
Very interesting posts.

I personally think there is a presence of good and evil in the world. Not a perception but a presence. Choice is the key to what we're talking about now. Like someone said, you may be given a opportunity but its what you do with that opportunity that is essential to your success.

Faheem,

I do believe many inner-city schools are subpar but I also believe parents should take resposibility if they have a child who is failing in school. If you are a parent that puts effort into the success of your childs education,there should be no way that child should fall behind. If its the school, then take the child out of that particular school. Yes, I do believe its harder for parents nowadays but not impossible. The issue is making your child your priority.

Speaking from the point of view of someone who went to a inner-city public school and lived in an inner-city projects, I can tell you the problems are too abudant to say these people just dont want to do anything with their lives. On this issue I agree. The problem is how do you change what is going on. Eventhough external powers may have situated the current state of inner-cities accross america, saying this is the result of external powers will do nothing for us. The people in these neighborhood have been living this cycle for all of their existance. So, eventhough you could direct blame, it wouldnt do any good for the people living the life.
THE STATE, GOVERNMENT IS NOT GOING TO GIVE US ANYTHING. Not a program, not any grants, there not going to change our school system... Why, because they dont give a damn. We need to do it for ourselves.

Lastly, I dont attribute my failures to the devil, but I do fight his presence. When a negative thought about my position or actions in life try to bring me down, I nip it right in the butt. My comfort words are always "The Lord is With Me". Just as I dont attribute my failures to the devil, I dont attribute my successes to the Lord. Many times I do believe it is he who put me in the position but its my actions that will take advantage or let the opportunity slip by.

I have much more I wanted to say but I have to leave the office now, but good topic and posts guys.

Last comment, each individual should measure their success by their own standards and by the success of someone else.
The idea of externalizing good and evil and success and failure is not subjective, meaning it is not limited to these particular issues I have raised here like religion and the educational system. I used these examples to make a point concerning externalizing failure. At what point do we come to the realization that placing blame outside one self when it is perfectly logical is not anything to be ashamed of? There seem to be some sort of stigma attached to placing blame outside oneself, as if when it is pointed out that the system contributes immensely to the failure we see in our communities that this some how means that those who are affected by the system now should sit around and wait for the system to be corrected. Most of us on this forum are perfectly examples of what placing blame externally is really about. I like many who frequent this forum will point out how external powers effect our day to day lives, but this does not mean because I know and understand this that I am sitting on my ass waiting for the external powers to be destroyed nor does it mean pointing out their wrong is a waste of time. Point the problem out and keep on working. When enough of us see this, we will say yes, there is a problem with the system and it needs to be fixed.

I understand and know that many of the ills that adversely affect Black people is not our doing, and though I and tons of other Black folk were able to over come it, does that mean it should not be fixed? When there is a pot hole in your parking area, everyone goes around the pot hole as much as they can, some people drive over the pot hole, and while it upset some drivers it is nothing more than a blip on the radar for others. Does this mean that the hole should not be fixed because we are able to drive around it, and some of us are able to drive over it? Are those drivers who drive past the pot hole and go about the daily lives some how acting like victims because they want the hole fixed? In an example like this it is easy to ascertain that people are pointing out the problem and going about their business, however in our situation for whatever reason people believe pointing out problems made by external powers is equal to being lazy and making excuses. This is far from the truth.

Externalizing blame is perfectly logical and if one does it, he or she should not be afraid of being labeled as having a victim attitude or complaining and looking for excuses. Back to the educational argument, since we do not have a benchmark that can tell us how much Parent Participation contributes to a student's success versus how much the lack of resources and lack of qualified teachers contributes to a child's failure, why are we so receptive of the idea that it is family values, culture and lack of parent participation that causes children to fail in school.

-------------------------
When our most educated, and best prepared turn their back on our community, stagnation sets in and the men and women who are not the most educated and not the most prepared become the example for those coming behind them. It is up to those of us who are not rich and well off but are educated and prepared to educate our youth and prepare them for what they will face when entering the world.



More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
Faheem posted,

At what point do we come to the realization that placing blame outside one self when it is perfectly logical is not anything to be ashamed of? There seem to be some sort of stigma attached to placing blame outside oneself, as if when it is pointed out that the system contributes immensely to the failure we see in our communities that this some how means that those who are affected by the system now should sit around and wait for the system to be corrected.



**You are sooo correct Faheem,

I remember when those dreaded, scum-of-the-race blk conservatives used to try and say how blacks who acknowledge the present racist lanscape in america and the way it works to undermine the efforts of many black people were slave minded, used whites as a crutch for failure and all that other nonsense. They would also conclude that any black who did so was feeling sorry for himself and not working hard enough to attain personal success. To me, that was an idiotic premise on their part to even ASSume such and really was a veiled attempt on their part to defend and exonerate "dem gud white folk" from their responsibility to correct what THEY created. The funny part is, many of us are waaay more successful then they are without even playing the self-subjugating negro role.....which demonstrates not only is it bad, but they are too stupid to even profit from it. Hell, i've accomplished quite a few things and have gone through allot of racist bullshiit, but i'm supposed to disavow my reality and also pretend like other blacks who face the dumbshiit america offers just have imaginations that are delusional in nature? They said that dumb shiit even in light of valid social research that quantified racial disparities and racist actions to the extent that they were measurable. When you provide people factual information that they cannot even rebut but choose to hold steadfast against it, then you are dealing with people who are comfortable with being ignorant and would like to remain so.
A minister, newly arrived in the community, wanted to get to know the people in the area went about introducing himself. While driving down a road, far out amongst the corn fields common in the region, he saw a farmer on a tractor at the far end of a beautiful field of corn making his turn to come back. He decided to wait, and introduce himself.

When the farmer approached the near end of the field, he saw the minister, and tipped his hat. The minister waved back, and motioned for the farmer to stop. The farmer did, and came over to the fence. The minister said, "Good morning, sir. That's a be-ooo-ti-ful field of corn you have there. God sure has done a be-ooo-ti-ful job. You should be thankful." The farmer looked at the minister, and replied, "You should have seen this field when God had it by Himself."

It's the system.

In another life, I spent a lot of time in the media because of the kind of work I did. I was the only "black" person regularly seen in the media. The nature of my work enabled/required me to impose performance standards on companies, municipalities, etc. When I would be in gatherings away from the media, community leaders, and company officials would take the opportunity to remind me how fortunate I was, and how good society (America) has/had been to me.

Their point was I didn't come by my position simply on merit, but by the grace and goodwill of the system, and he/she was a part of that empowerment. You are only able to do this because the power structure of which I am, clearly a critical part, LET you.

Sometimes I replied. Sometimes I didn't.

Faheem, you are right. The system gives credit where it deems it will do the most good FOR THE SYSTEM. GOOD is never about you. The system assigns blame where it deems it will do the most good FOR THE SYSTEM. BLAME is always about you.

It is the system.

Taking credit for good you have done is considered a "no-no." Assigning blame to others for your failure is also considered a "no-no." Yet our judicial system calls the later "failure, but without culpability." The sophisticated version of "The devil made me do it."

It is good you started this thread. I think it is another door to understanding the system we, of African America,live in.

I don't want my comments to be a rant, but it is so important to fully understand that American Society IS ABOUT COLOR. All the great perspectives that have been offered here become so much more significant, on a personal level, and especially as a people, when this reality is applied.

I will say this and leave it alone, lest I bore you. Leaving our identity in the hands of "color" is to leave our future in the hands of our enemy.

It is the system.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

[This message was edited by James Wesley Chester on August 29, 2003 at 07:37 AM.]
Faheem:

THANKS FOR GETTING THIS OUT IN THE OPEN.

I had to come back, because I did not want it to get lost that this is an absolutely OUTSTANDING thread. It challenges the hidden decisions we make about ourselves on a daily basis, without realizing.

I am constantly examining the decisions I make about myself. Because I have made such a hugh commitment to identity, I am always alert to the impact of the decision on my grandchildren. I target my grandchildren because they are in the stage of impression which is more lasting than explanation, which is what would have to do with my adult children.

Just as our acceptance of assigning "external cause" of events is "ingrained," our acceptance of assigning "external cause" to identity is/becomes innate. My example to my grandchildren needs to be founded in reason to withstand the attacks sure to come from society.

My children as "Black" (with a capital "b".) My wife and I are, primarily, responsible for that, with reinforcement from society, of course. We, my wife and I, wanted that. We got what we wanted. We did this all the time knowing that "black" was the counteractant to "white" in our society.

In the early days, society (black and white) recoiled from the choice, because society had used "black" for generations to put us down, as a people as well and as individuals. But realization soon set in. The usage spread in the language until everything we own or touch is not only "black" it is "Black" (capital "B"). That was not our intent. I said, "The system has bound us with this." But that's "externalizing" and it's not entirely true. We, my wife and I got what we insisted on.

We thought we are achieving parity. Instead we bound our children in the system of "color." The same system our parents were bound in, and their parents before them.

What happened?

Initially, "black" was a pejorative descriptor for what we were. Now "black" is not only what we are, it is the definer of who we are. Explanation, alone, cannot persuade my children otherwise. Our job was too thorough.

There is no "externalization." I/We did that.

Without externalization, responsibility comes bears its full weight on the perpetrator. Issues without spin stand naked for examination.

The most difficult, the most painful, examination is done with a mirror.

PEACE

Jim Chester

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

[This message was edited by James Wesley Chester on August 29, 2003 at 08:09 AM.]


[This message was edited by James Wesley Chester on August 29, 2003 at 03:09 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by Faheem:

Is it possible that the many systems that contribute to the failure, destruction and marginalization of certain segments of the population are free to do as they please because the externalization of blame is not something that is acceptable in our society? Knowing that simply saying that someone is not taking responsibility for their own actions and they lack values and live in a culture of destruction allow for systems whatever it may be to avoid being held responsible for its actions and actions produced because of the way the system is set up? Think about it! Our very nature can be used against us, by intelligent but deceitful humans who know and understand that placing blame on the individual falls right in line with our thinking that externalizing blame is unacceptable, Thus they are free to lie, cheat, steal and destroy as they please.


This is a very interesting point.

There is a line between externalizing the cause of a problem directly caused by the external force on the one hand, and using the fact of that cause and effect to refrain from doing what one can to better ones condition. The line is really not even a fine one. Your posts do a great job of pointing out several key issuesrelated to that difference. Thanks.
I am bumping this thread back up, based on the response I have received in the Bill Cosby v/s Camille Cosby thread because there seem to be a lack of understanding of what it mean when the system is giving a bye in the destruction of our people. In this thread I wrote,

quote:
since we do not have a benchmark that can tell us how much Parent Participation contributes to a student's success versus how much the lack of resources and lack of qualified teachers contributes to a child's failure, why are we so receptive of the idea that it is family values, culture and lack of parent participation that causes children to fail in school.



This is what Bill left out of his message and this is what I find repulsive; his lack of clarity is shamefull.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Faheem:

his lack of clarity is shamefull.


There is lack of clarity that parents are responsible for their children? Furthermore, in the absence if "resources", even more parent involvement is required.


MBM, you are falling for the oke doke. You are trying to require something from us that is not required from other people, and because our condition and place in this country is different it is easy to point to Poor parenting as the reason behind the problems we see. This foolish beliefs hints that white Parents are overly involved in their children lives, this is not the case. The many problems similar to our problems that plague the white community is not dismissed as bad parenting. The drug problem in the white community is not seen as bad parenting but some how it equates to bad parenting in our community. That is nonsense. School shootings by white kids is due to them being abused and bullied. However, problems in school from Black children is bad parenting. OK
quote:
Originally posted by Faheem:

However, problems in school from Black children is bad parenting. OK


You seem to be extending the discussion beyond its original scope. IMO, without regard to race, the greater the parental involvement in a child's education, the better the quality of education that that child will receive. Guaranteed! This applies to all people and all academic contexts. And as I said earlier, this is particularly the case in poorer schools where it often takes the consistent lobbying of parents to ensure that a child gets the best teachers/classes/materials/opportunities/attention etc.

Without regard to race, if parents don't read to their children when young, don't take an active role in their child's education, don't become a visible presence at their child's school, and don't consistently work with their children on school work at home - then its pretty clear that those children will generally not get the same education as those whose parents do. Faheem, no double standard or ignorance of context here. That just is. If parents deliver the message that education is important then their kids will take it more seriously.

You should also be clear that no where have I made a blanket statement indicting all black families or parents.
I have not extended the scope of this discussion, I am offering you a better view of what we are seing and it may appear that discussion has been exteneded but we are still talking about the very same thing. I have not argued that parental participation will not help a childs education, I have argued that no benchmark has been set that can demostrate to us how bad parenting affects a child education versus how, poor schools, under qualified teachers affects a child education.

As you believe better parenting will gurantee a child one thing or another, I can guarantee qualified teachers, removing the passive racism of low expectation from teachers at Black schools and better funding will gurantee a better education.
quote:
Originally posted by Faheem:

As you believe better parenting will gurantee a child one thing or another, I can guarantee qualified teachers, removing the passive racism of low expectation from teachers at Black schools and better funding will gurantee a better education.


Sure. Who's arguing that point though? My point is that without regard to the quality of school or teachers, the greater a parent is involved, the better the education that that child will have. If Bill Gates ignores his kids, they won't get as good an education as the child whose parents are involved. For the very reasons you cite above, parents must manage their childrens' education.
I just had a short discussion on parental responsibility with the principal of my grandson's school. He is 4. The school goes from day care to 6.

Basically, the conversation was about how did it get to be the parents' fault. The parents' responsibility. It wasn't that way for me. She said it wasn't that way for her. We both agreed times have indeed change. But, we could not determine how the responsibility got moved from the school to the parent.

I begins to look like an gambit taking advantage of a lack of assets by the poor, and particularly "black" student. What makes the poor parent of today more responsible than the poor parent of my day, or her day. Is it because the educators are doing less. Or are less capable? I am inclined to think this is part of the answer. Less competence in educators.

Whether this is externalization or not I don't know.

But, it is consistent with the "not me" mentality.

PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:
I just had a short discussion on parental responsibility with the principal of my grandson's school. He is 4. The school goes from day care to 6.

Basically, the conversation was about how did it get to be the parents' fault. The parents' responsibility. It wasn't that way for me. She said it wasn't that way for her. We both agreed times have indeed change. But, we could not determine how the responsibility got moved from the school to the parent.

I begins to look like an gambit taking advantage of a lack of assets by the poor, and particularly "black" student. What makes the poor parent of today more responsible than the poor parent of my day, or her day. Is it because the educators are doing less. Or are less capable? I am inclined to think this is part of the answer. Less competence in educators.

Whether this is externalization or not I don't know.

But, it is consistent with the "not me" mentality.

PEACE

Jim Chester


Booya!!! This is the truth. When white folk could not be honest about the public school system and how poorly funded, and run Black schools are they switched the responsibility over to the parents as to alleviate the schools failure. When I was in school there was no talk about parental responsibility, it was about the school doing its part. People need to remember, I am a child of a Black man and a Black woman that lived through segregation and Jim Crow in the South before their parents headed north to Chicago. My parents to this day can not read at a 6th grade level probably a 3rd grade level but my Father though absent from my life was able to hold a job with 3m until retiring. However he was in no position to help me with schooling he did not understand or know nor was my mother.

There was an understanding of this at one time, now many Black folk have forgotten. We just celebrated the 50th anniversary of Brown V. Board not the 200th. Only thing that has changed is now the Parents are responsible for the poor schooling their child receives and the schools are not. As I noted earlier in this thread if a school graduated 500 and 350 are not prepared, at what point do we realize something is wrong with the school. I bet a simple study of Black schools and white schools will show us that Parental participation in the schools is not that very different. People have sued school districts for what happen to their child on school grounds at the hand of other children, tell me why was not Parental participation seen as the reason behind these types of incidents but the moment a black person talk about failing schools, people want to talk that Parental Participation crap, when the truth is even the best and brightest from many of our public schools are ill prepared for what they will face.

I think Black folk in most major cities need to file a class action lawsuit against the Public school system for their continued miseducation of our children and for not preparing them for the real world. If a mother can sue a school district because her daughter was beat up on school grounds, than surely we can sue for miseducating our children. The young Honor Roll student down in Florida who had a four year academic scholarship to College should be able to sue the school for not being prepared for a state mandated test. She was a honor roll student and from passing all of her classes she should have been more than prepared for this test. The fact that she recognized things on the test she had not been taught is grounds for a lawsuit. Don't you think!!
quote:
Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:
I just had a short discussion on parental responsibility with the principal of my grandson's school. He is 4. The school goes from day care to 6.

Basically, the conversation was about how did it get to be the parents' fault. The parents' responsibility. It wasn't that way for me. She said it wasn't that way for her. We both agreed times have indeed change. But, we could not determine how the responsibility got moved from the school to the parent.

I begins to look like an gambit taking advantage of a lack of assets by the poor, and particularly "black" student. What makes the poor parent of today more responsible than the poor parent of my day, or her day. Is it because the educators are doing less. Or are less capable? I am inclined to think this is part of the answer. Less competence in educators.

Whether this is externalization or not I don't know.

But, it is consistent with the "not me" mentality.

PEACE

Jim Chester


All of this is precisely why parents must be more involved.

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